Aditya’s parents are visiting us again for the second time – they arrived late last week – which has cut into my blogging time as we catch up with them. Of course, it also means plenty of blogging material is being generated with our temporary extended family living situation. The last time they visited I only got out one substantive post on the topic – I hope to do a bit better this time. Of course, that post – which was on the (eek!) order that Aditya’s parents tried to bring to our home, disrupting my chaotic-but-somehow-functional mess of a system – still haunts us. Today Baba and Maa dusted and vacuumed the house while we at work – and then jokingly pointed out after I arrived home that my piles of mess were exactly where I left them, just cleaner.
(Little do they know that if I am stymied in blogging about their dastardly actions of cleaning our house & cooking delicious meals I have no problem in getting irrationally upset about some other minor issue. For example: the fridge has been reorganized without my express permission, and the dishwasher was inefficiently loaded, resulting in one less cup being washed than if I had loaded it. I’m still reeling!)
Since I haven’t had a chance to sit down and think through a post lately, I thought I’d share with you the transcript I’ve typed up in spare minutes from an NPR segment called Intercultural Relationships: Can They Work?. I’m not a professional transcriber, so there may be errors – but I figured something was better than nothing for those of you who can’t (or don’t like to) listen to podcasts. The segment (and my post title) was developed from an article in East West Magazine. The article, which you can find here, is quite complimentary to the NPR segment, and I encourage you to read it as well as the transcript below. I’ve bolded the parts I find particularly interesting, and will post my thoughts on it tomorrow in the comments section.
[Begin transcript]
NPR: It’s time for a regular visit with one of our cultural coaches. Today: “You’re marrying him?” Wedding season is around the corner; brides and grooms will be blushing their way down aisles across America. So what better time to ask an expert about what you might need to know if you’re heading to commitment with a person with a different racial or ethnic background? We got this idea from our friends at East West Magazine; the April/May issue has a feature called “To hug or not to hug” about how to handle that all-important meeting with the parents.
And joining us now from Phoenix is Anita Malik. She is editor of East West Magazine. And from her office in Poughkeepsie, New York, we’re pleased to be joined by Lubna Somjee, a psychologist; she’s quoted in the article. Thanks for being here ladies!
Anita, why did you commission this article? You must have been hearing about this from readers or perhaps from personal experience?
Anita: A little bit of both. Actually, simply put, interracial marriages and couplings are growing at a very increasing rate and we tend to focus with that a lot with the magazine, but had never done anything where – how do you deal with this within your own family and with your parents? And that was something we were hearing from readers, that, you know, it’s great to know that the statistics are there, and that this is happening, but how do we deal with it in our own lives, with our own unique circumstances?
NPR: And Dr. Somjee, you are offering tips – or you offered some tips in the magazine – but in the years in which you’ve been practicing, and you’ve worked with couples around these issues, are there some classic cultural clashes that you’ve seen?
Dr. Somjee: Yes, I mean, I’ve definitely seen some classic cultural clashes. Although many times, people have been able to sort of work through them. One of the classic issues is when neither parties have sort of prepped themselves for what to expect when they meet the parents. They think they have, but they really haven’t. Although most of the time those meetings have gone fairly well, in spite of.
NPR: Is that really the case? I just wonder whether, over the course of your practice, do most of the couples that come to you, do they eventually stay together, or do you see couples breaking up because of these differences?
Dr. Somjee: Most of the couples I see do stay together, but I would not say that it was very rare that some couples would break up. For example, a young couple I worked with had an interracial union and met each other’s families, and it wasn’t until they met each other’s families that it sort of punctuated for them how different their backgrounds were. And they came home, and for the first time had a much more serious, in-depth discussion of how their culture impacts their every day lives and realized how different their views were on a lot of things. And unfortunately, for that couple, their differences were irreconcilable.
NPR: Anita, you mention in the article, I’m sorry, which I know you didn’t write, but, you know, you edited it, that in every culture meeting the parents can be kind of fraught with anxiety, but in the Asian culture, in couples where there may be an Asian or Asian-American partner, it can be particularly stressful. Why is that?
Anita: Asian immigrant parents typically have a very set view of who their children should marry. It’s a different type of relationship, but every family has their own traditions, and sometimes a lot of that becomes very, very specific to what the parents want. It’s just a very different child-parent relationship. It gets a little bit more tricky, and so it can be difficult.
NPR: What were some of the scenarios that were described in the article? I thought it was hilarious, actually…
Anita: There’s a lot of humor to this too, and I think that’s the important lesson: that you need to be able to actually laugh at yourself when you make – you’re going to make faux pas when you meet the parents. But the title of the piece actually comes from one scenario where both parts of the couple were Asian, from two different countries. And one family was very warm… the parents wanted to hug everybody, and the other family couldn’t really handle the hugs. And so that became an issue between the couple, and they finally came to a point where they said, “Well, this is how my family is going to be, and this is how your family is going to be, and they’re going to have to work it out.”
NPR: So, Dr. Somjee, help us here. In a situation like that, where the parents are meeting for the first time, what advice do you offer to make it go smoothly? Or maybe, maybe making it go smoothly isn’t the whole point of the thing, just to be honest. I don’t know – tell us.
Dr. Somjee: When you’re meeting someone’s family, knowing what their ethnic background is, or their racial background or religion obviously is important, but it’s only a first basic step. And really, the most important thing to understand is, what is that family’s relationship to each of its cultural variables. Otherwise you kinda get on a slippery slope in terms of making assumptions to stereotyping.
NPR: So how would that information best be acquired? Do you try to be very explicit with the partner and say, “Alright, are your parents huggers or not? Will they expect me to bring a present? If so, what kind?”
Dr. Somjee: There’s a couple ways to do that. One is, you know, get a sense of what the expectations of the meeting are from your significant other. Is it going to be a casual or formal get together? But the other piece of it is, your significant other is often steeped in their own culture so things that may be commonplace to them, they may not even think to tell you. And I think one of the best ways to get information from your significant other is through storytelling. Try to have your significant other tell you stories that illustrate different occasions in your family, or different traditions in the family.
NPR: I have an email that I wanted to share with both of you, ladies. And it says:
“This might be a good question for your coach. I just had a second date with a lovely professional woman who was born in and raised in Sapporo, Japan. She now works in the same East Coast city that I do. Our third date is this weekend. I’m a professional African-American man. What should I know about the Asian approach to dating? Is there such a thing? The first date ended in her bowing, when in Rome, I thought, so I bowed too. The second date ended with a hug & a smile, so I hugged her and smiled back. So far, so good I’m thinking. We’re able to talk for hours… but what do I need to keep in mind?”
So, who wants to start, Anita, is this a common scenario among readers?
Anita: Yeah, I think so. Apparently she’s a little more traditional. It sounds like she actually has immigrated from Japan and not necessarily born here and in that case, I think he just really needs to ask her. But I would say, speak to her about how her family would feel… ahead of time.
NPR: Interesting. Dr. Somjee, what do you think?
Dr. Somjee: Part of it depends on, are you dating to date, or are you dating to marry? Because if someone is asked that question & is scared off by it, at least you know where they are in terms of their dating and what they want from it.
NPR: So what I’m hearing you say is, “ask the questions sooner rather than later”.
Dr. Somjee: Absolutely.
NPR: I’m so glad I’m married.
Anita: Hard, isn’t it, this dating thing.
NPR: It is hard! You all have my respect. Dr. Somjee, I understand you are also interculturally married. If it’s not too personal, can you offer any guidelines from your personal experience?
Dr. Somjee: Yes, I’ve been married and in a relationship with my husband for about ten years. He is white and I am South Asian and I actually come from a community where arranged marriages are absolutely still the norm. So when my husband was to meet my parents, I prepped myself… and I prepped my parents.
NPR: What about persons who perhaps weren’t welcomed so warmly into the fold? How would you advise them to move beyond that?
Dr. Somjee: One thing is, you know, you may have an opportunity to meet the family again and again. And if so, take advantage of those opportunities by getting to know them better. You know, unfortunately, there may be some families who ultimately say, “You know what, we cannot do this. No matter how nice you may be, no matter how much we like you in general, this is not something we can accept in our family.” And at this point you as a couple have to decide whether you’re willing to take the risk, and those are hard questions you’ll have to ask yourself before you even start this process.
NPR: But, hard questions that have to be asked.
Dr. Somjee: Yeah.
[End Transcript]
I’d love to hear everyone thoughts on this NPR piece, and the accompying article from East West Magazine. Good advice, bad advice? Is “ask questions sooner rather than later” a good policy to follow? Anyone tried storytelling as a way to learn about family customs?
24. June 2009 at 4:18 am
Thanks for posting this–it was really interesting! NPR rules, in my (somewhat biased!) opinion. I think it's true that many couples don't realize how different their backgrounds are until they meet the parents. I'm really glad that my husband prepared me before I met his family. I also agree with their advice to “ask the questions sooner rather than later.”
On the “to hug or not to hug” thing…when I first met Mummy I touched her feet. Now I touch feet, then hug! But it was really kind of hilarious/awkward when Mummy stayed with us this year, and she met my dad for the first time. My dad tried to hug her because he didn't realize it wasn't “done” in Indian culture. Poor Mummy–she was so taken aback! But she handled it pretty well and Daddy didn't try to hug her again after that, hehehe.
24. June 2009 at 10:24 am
I think “ask questions sooner rather than later” is key in any relationship — right now one of my friends and his wife are disagreeing about whether they want kids, and I keep thinking about how stupid it is that they didn't discuss this more thoroughly before getting married. It especially holds true for intercultural relationships, though. Even for my coconut of a husband, he has assumptions about relationships and marriage that are influenced by how he grew up; these might have been a problem if we hadn't discussed them well in advance. I imagine it's even more of an issue with partners who are more closely connected with their culture than mine is.
G's family is very huggy, for the most part, although it turns out his dad's sister and her family are not. It was a little awkward meeting them after having been around the rest of the huggy family for so long (I just met them for the first time on our India trip), but luckily I was warned ahead of time that they are a little more standoffish.
2. March 2010 at 5:08 pm
I understand that it might seem ‘standoffish’ to not want to hug (we’re talking people of the opposite sex here) or be hugged but allow me to explain the other side’s point of view:
Everyone doesn’t have a right to touch others, especially the women in the family. As in, a (Indian) father or father-in-law may object to a male ex-classmate of his (Indian) daughter’s / (U.S. / Indian) daughter-in-law’s hugging her as they run into each other after a long time. Only some of the people that are related to the daughter / DIL would have that right, in his perpective. A friend does not meet that criterion. A brother, an uncle, a grandfather do. A male cousin does not usually, unless he’s really old or much, much older or married; the he’s ‘safe’.
In some families, a friend might qualify if he has had long-standing relations with the family and both he and the gal say that they are like brother and sister. Meaning, either you are related or you manufacture a relationship if a hug is to be deemed acceptable.
The other thing is that a hug is like a devalued currency (similar in value to a feigned smile) in Western countries since your entire office could come hug you knowing it is your birthday, but the very next day some of those same people will backbite and continue with their negative behaviors.
In India, a hug is a high-value currency which is usually given purely as a sign of closeness and affection (restrictions apply — see above). So, even to some that have been in the U.S. a long time after spending some part of their childhood in India, it seems like a manifestation of hypocrisy to hug someone and follow it up with negative behavior or to hug someone and then never keep in touch since now ‘you don’t work there anymore’.
There, it has to be part of something on-going to warrant a hug whereas here, it could be just a one-time thing where you meet a friend of a friend when you go out and you never see the person ever again!
24. June 2009 at 10:43 am
Its important to discuss stuff before getting seriously involved, but one thing to keep in mind is that people change. Someone who didn't want kids at 25 may want them at 30.
Thats just one example.
24. June 2009 at 3:55 pm
“G's family is very huggy, for the most part, although it turns out his dad's sister and her family are not. It was a little awkward meeting them after having been around the rest of the huggy family for so long (I just met them for the first time on our India trip), but luckily I was warned ahead of time that they are a little more standoffish”
Not surprising at all….. my mom (oldest in the family) and her sisters seem like they are all from different cultures … though they all look alike
24. June 2009 at 5:56 pm
Every time I read something on how intercultural relationships are supposed to be extra hard or extra confusing or extra work or whatever…I'm thankful I met Good Man in Korea. I think I would've approached meeting him, and dealing with (often overblown by the media) cultural different, and relating to his family very differently if we'd met here.
24. June 2009 at 6:39 pm
I think one good thing about inter-cultural marriages, specifically when they are westerners married to easterners, is that due to the emphasis on marriage and family in eastern cultures, westerners upgrade themselves in that department, meaning, they work at making things work more than they might with another westerner in a society where getting a divorce is not considered a big deal, or living with someone for 5-10 years without getting married is not considered a big deal. I think west-east inter-cultural relationships kind of push westerners to become more seriously committed than they would be otherwise.
OK, I said it. Now shoot me.
I think only the most serious (committed) women and men get involved with an easterner.
25. June 2009 at 12:03 am
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25. June 2009 at 9:50 am
Hmmmm interesting point…..not that I agree with it.
lol
I think that maybe it’s not so much that we are less committed than other cultures are but less judgmental of what other people do in their lives.
Time and time again I’ve heard story’s (both from Indian Men and Women as well as from Western ones) about how this couldn’t be done or that had to be done because the family wanted it, the society wanted it, and the neighbor’s wanted it. I’ve heard complaints about how no one in an eastern culture has time to look after their own affairs because their too busy looking after other’s.
Here in the US, we are more individualistic, which means that it’s more an atmosphere of “to each his own”. People may gossip here, but in general nobody really cares what the neighbor across the street thinks, or the community. We do what we feel is right for us in the situation we are in. Nobody else has walked in our shoes, so how can they judge.
I get the feeling that while the same term is used in eastern cultures, it’s not necessarily so much lived by.
Sure the divorce rate in the US is much higher than in eastern countries; however I would be more interested in seeing a study done on infidelity rates in the east. Divorce is public, where anybody and everybody knows about it and can weigh in, but Affairs are generally private or everyone “turns a blind eye”.
Comments? Thoughts?
25. June 2009 at 11:30 am
'I’ve heard complaints about how no one in an eastern culture has time to look after their own affairs because their too busy looking after other’s.”
My husband and I had a conversation about this a few days ago, specifically about how Indians and non-Indians have very different views on family/community obligations and independence. As he put it, it's a trade off. On the one hand, if you are part of an Indian community, everyone is going to be all up in your business all the time, and (at least to some extent) you have to conform to some very complex social rules and norms (like having to attend every wedding/baby shower/anniversary party of people you've never even met, or bending over backwards to show regard to people you might not be all that close to). On the other hand, when you need support or help from the community, you know they'll be there for you and do everything they can to help you. So there are some good things and some not-so-good things about belonging to an Indian community (as with just about everything in life!).
This balancing of individualism/community is certainly one of the things that requires adjustment (from both sides, ideally) when entering into an intercultural relationship.
25. June 2009 at 1:41 pm
Westerners are definetly much less judgemental, that is for sure. But they also divorce for frivilous reasons as well. When I was growing up, people divorced for good reasons – abuse, alcoholism, addictions like gambling, affairs. Now what I'm seeing is that many (not all) divorces are due to what I would call frivilous reasons – even when kids are involved. I see it all the time.
Affiars in the east? In cultures like India, men and women often have to go to great lengths to just meet “as friends” , what to speak of anything else. The society is segregated, not to the extent of Saudi Arabia, but to a much greater extent than here. Part of extra-marital affairs is ACCESS. If you don't have access, there is no question of an affair. Of course, where there is a will, there will always be a way. And India does have a thriving prostitution industry. How many of the clients are married men? Don't know. And then of course married men who eve-tease, sexually harrass women in the streets are also cheating on their wives when they do it, so I don't know. I don't think however that married men who eve-tease would consider that a form of “infidelity” or “adultery”. I do. But do they?
26. June 2009 at 10:21 am
Well, the divorce rate in my husband's east Asian country is nearly the same as it is in my country. In fan, UN stats show that the divorce rate is increasing in Asia. In 2002 47% of marriage in my husband's country ended in divorce. Hmm.
And the infidelity rate in his east Asian country is rather high, and fairly accepted, too–among men at least. Women who cheat are still gone after legally. Men who cheat are just being men.
Sort of blows holes in your theory.
26. June 2009 at 10:23 am
The ways that I would approached the relationship have nothing to do with divorce or “upgrading” myself. Thanks for being presumptuous, though.
26. June 2009 at 7:36 pm
Well, I know that Islamic culture looks more kindly upon divorce than Hindu culture. I don't know how many times I've heard in India, “there is no divorce in Hindu culture”. So, maybe I should just confine my comments to India, where the divorce rate is very, very, very low, though, increasing.
I think Christianity also forbade divorce at one point in time, and maybe some sects still do.
In India, though a Hindu may obtain a legal divorce, still, it goes so much against the grain of the culture, it will be a long time before it gains acceptance. And you always get those folks who say, “there is no such thing as divorce in Hindu culture. This is western innovation”. Then of course there are some “vedists” who say in old, ancient “vedic culture” way back when, there was divorce.
In India there are separate legal laws for Christians and Muslims. There is not one uniform “civil code” in India. In matters of “personal and family law”, there are different laws depending on which religion you belong to.
Bottom line: the divorce rate in India is mad low, dude.
26. June 2009 at 8:48 pm
“So, maybe I should just confine my comments to India[...]“
That might be a good idea. Smaller area, smaller mistakes.
27. June 2009 at 12:33 pm
Islam permits divorce. Its in the Quran. That's what Islam has to do with it.
Muslims have a higher divorce rate in India than Hindus do (adjusted for population size), but still, that rate is very low compared to the divorce rate in the USA.
28. June 2009 at 8:53 pm
Gori Girl,
I just listened to this piece only about two weeks ago. I don't know if the sound is still up. However, if it isn't I may still be able to get it for you. I'm a reporter for an NPR affiliate here so we have access to old sound sometimes. Let me know if you need it.
30. June 2009 at 5:27 pm
mocroidh—
I always like what you have to say. I am currently working through the very independence/Indian community issues that you speak of. This will probably always be R and my core fight
. I think I perhaps underestimated how much I needed my space and independence throughout our “courting” phase but now that we are moving closer to the marriage route, we have become acutely aware of this issue. In short, R is just used to having the Indian community all up in his biz and I'm not. It's not like his family is all over me now, but I worry they will be as the years go by. Part of me hopes maybe I be more OK with this stuff as I settle in the relationship. We are really working on hammering out the details and it is tough (i.e. when I would let his parents live with us/how often we visit/etc.) Bottom line is that it's never going to be enough for his parents regardless and we are always going to have to work through issues with how many family members do we let stay at our place, etc.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I know me being a super independent gal isn't the best mix for his traditional Telugu culture. But I'm hoping it can still work out–R's my man!
30. June 2009 at 7:46 pm
Hmmmmmmmm……
This is where it all gets very sticky.
Good luck!
“When I would let his parents live with us”. hmmm…
He wants them to live with y'all? Permanantly.
Have you ever asked him how he would feel if YOUR parents lived with you?
(i know they probably would never want to, but just on principle, have you asked?)
This is the stuff, girl. This is the stuff.
2. March 2010 at 5:29 pm
To an Indian parent, talking about whether you would or would not let them live with their son is absurd. Just trying to explain the point of view from the other side. To the parents, the question doesn’t arise… as in, ‘What do you mean she won’t ‘let’ us live there?’. It is the baseline that they would indeed live with their son. Anything else is differing from the norm and would be filed under ‘compromise’.
1. July 2009 at 6:16 am
This IS the stuff. The real stuff. The sticky stuff. R said he's totally live with my parents if they become widowed or can't take care of themselves. I don't really want that, nor do I want his parents to ever live with us. But I have to compromise here. So does he. It's major sacrifices on both ends given how close he is to his family and how independent I am.
1. July 2009 at 9:55 am
Well, how about saying that if one of his parents becomes widowed or if they both become incapacitated, then they can live with you. By that time maybe you will be living in a big enough space so that you will still feel you have your independence and privacy. The thing is, in most Desi families, the burden of doing the physical work of caring for elderly falls on the daughter-in-law, even if she is working full time in a career or job. Perhaps by that time you would be financially stable enough to hire good home-care. There are also freelance home-care agents that work off the books for a lot less.
1. July 2009 at 11:18 am
Nope, max, that's not gonna work for me.
We actually came to the agreement last night that if one becomes widowed we would offer to put them up in an apartment a mile away form us or so. That way R can check in regularly and we can continue to have our own lives. I'm still nervous about this, because I wouldn't go to these lengths for my parents nor would they want me to, but it's all about the compromise.
Absolutely not will I be solely shouldering the burden of physically taking care of his parents. Traditional or not, again, my parents don't expect or want this of me and I already told R I'm not doing it. If they end up living with us at this point nurses and aides will be hired.
I'm so tired of hearing all this “daughter in law” does this and that. R's mom NEVER had to do any of this and never will. There seem to be plenty of convenient loopholes for R's family (and plenty of other traditional Indian families) as far as I'm concerned, and of anyone I think I have the biggest: I'm American!
Beyond that, in American and many Latin cultures, it is mostly the responsibility of the daughters to take care of their parents. R's mom has been a full time nanny for his sister for 5 years with her two kids. I will never ask or expect something out of her… but yet the obvious person to take care of them is R??? Come on… I call bullshit!
1. July 2009 at 2:22 pm
I hear ya, Neo, however, from the “desi viewpoint” it sounds harsh. The logic is, R's mom spent 9 months risking her life (pregancy is a risk) by carrying him in her womb and risked it again to birth him. Then she toiled and labored to raise him, giving up so much of her own autonomy in order to be a good mom. So Indian men in particular feel obligated to their mothers. “If she took care of me all these years, why can't I take care of her? It would be selfish not to”.
Desi culture also has that mata-pita -seva concept going on – service to the mother and father. There's a famous myth around someone who was so good at serving his parents that he got some type of “boon” from some god or other.
Also, think about if one or both of your parents got to the point where they needed to be put in a nursing home. People get lonely, neglected and even abused in those places sometimes!
On the other hand, I can't not but see your side too. As an independent woman who LOVES her privacy, I totally get it.
1. July 2009 at 2:31 pm
Oh I do fully realize how harsh it sounds from their end. I've spent two years researching it from their end
. But now it's a matter of what's *really* going to work for me, given who I am and being true to that.
All I can think of is now is major compromise from both R and my end. I hope it happens relatively quickly — my ovaries are getting old! HAHaa
1. July 2009 at 3:11 pm
It seems that R is fine with whatever you want and how you want to live, but his parents (maybe ma in particular) keep chiming in with their “expectations” and he does not want to hurt them or totally cut them off.
Maybe he should just be firmer in his stance and say something like, “to be fair to Neo and her parents, we are going to give you the same amount of time and energy that we give them – no more, no less, equal”
I think if his mom had an active social life outside of the home that she would not be so “needy”.
But traditional desi moms often only live for their kids, particularly their sons. Its a big deal just for the son to move out and live on his own, what to speak of live with another woman, and not under the same roof as his parents. These things would already be seen as “huge compromises” on the part of his mother.
Is there anyway she can become involved in something beyond herself and her family? Like a project or something? Maybe she can adopt Michael Jackson's kids;)
(and just wait til your first baby pops out! she will want to be with her/him 24/7)