I sat down with Aditya’s parents, Maa and Baba, a few nights ago with a list of eight questions to find out their views on American culture and intercultural relationships… and we ended up talking for over an hour, thus necessitating a Part One and a Part Two. Today’s portion focuses on the early days: their worries on sending their youngest son, Aditya, to a foreign country, thoughts on American culture, dating, and their first interactions with me. Technical details: I transcribed the interview from a sound recording, and have only edited (in square brackets) for clarity or in keeping with Maa & Baba’s wishes for certain things to be “off the record”. My comments and notes post-transcription are in red.
GG: What were your concerns when Aditya came to the US to study?
Maa: Whether he’ll be able to cope with everything; [I was] concerned with his studies. And we didn’t have that much of money to support him, so whether he would be able to support himself.
Baba: Firstly, the financial part. Secondly, he had never lived away from home – this was the first time he’d be living away from home. Thirdly, it was a strange country for him, the surroundings, the education system, language, food, everything was different! And I knew that he would be able to cope with the things, but I had doubted how easily he’d be able to cope up with it.
Aditya was the first member of his family to travel to the US. Maa and Baba first came to visit after his older brother, Dada, also moved to the US, about half way through Aditya’s college career.
GG: Do you remember what you guys thought of the US then? What your impressions, your ideas of it were?
Baba: Actually, as far as I am concerned, when I came to the US, I was more or less not surprised. I knew the US quite a lot – from movies, from books that I have studied, and I expected it to be more or less like this. The only thing is that I did not expect the US to be so huge as a country.
Maa: Actually, when I came for the first time, my whole concern was for Aditya. So I was not interested in how the US was – [I] only wanted to know how he was.
GG: Did you have any worries about Aditya being at a US university, meeting Americans, maybe dating or falling in love with one of them or anything like that?
Maa: No, I didn’t have any concerns.
GG: Did you think he would date Americans when he came to the US?
Baba: No, I never thought that was an issue. If I liked someone at the right time, right age, I always said yes. Of course, I had certain reservations, and that has not happened.
*waggles eyebrows at Baba’s phrasing*
GG: What reservations?
Baba: That is off the record.
<Aditya laughs>
For the record, I still haven’t heard what the reservations were.
GG: Were you aware of his social activities when he was at the university?
Baba: Yes, he used to write, sometimes spoke to his mother… not to me. From what I could gather, I figured I had a fairly good idea of his activities. Of course, some of it was my imagination…
Maa: Nah, I knew only the portion that he used to tell us. But I [only] know half of it.
GG: So you knew that he had… (to Aditya) how many girlfriends was it?
Aditya: I told them…
Eight girlfriends his first year, I believe, (EIGHT!) and he tossed them all in two weeks or less. Shameless.
Baba: Yeah, he had many [girlfriends] in Delhi also…
Maa: Actually, we are not very much, uh, concerned with children’s girlfriends or boyfriends.
Baba: As long as you are not doing anything wrong, if your aim, your studies are going properly, I think that there is nothing wrong in having girlfriends. How you take that relation matters… Like, I had in India at one time I knew a lot of girls – and of course, my parents were also very liberal. Even today, if I meet them, if I get a chance to meet them, there’s nothing wrong in this, I always felt. Yes, if somebody has some bad intention, that is different. For that…
Maa: Nah, it is very natural. There is nothing to worry about. If I know my children, they will choose the right thing.
Baba: No, as long as a child knows what is right or wrong, there is no need for the parent to worry. And I, at least, have the confidence in my children; they can recognize right.
Maa: And in that way my impression of Aditya is very high.
Baba: That every mother has!
Maa: Nah, he’s a moralist type.
Baba: Yes, he’s a moralist type.
I suspect – but do not know one way or another for sure – that the attitude that Maa & Baba express here is pretty unusual for mainstream Indian culture. Heck, I suspect it’s pretty unusual for the majority of American parents of teenagers too. Anyways, with the basics of Maa & Baba’s views on dating established, we now changed tacks to start discussing Aditya’s relationship with me, which was more serious than those with previous girlfriends (i.e. I lasted more than two weeks).
GG: Do you remember when he told you he was dating me? Do you remember what he said?
Baba: Yes.
Maa: Yes. When you two had some difference of opinion, and I told him that this girl is a … in our language, Saraswati, it means goddess of learning – she looks like that.
Aditya: This was when we were broken up.
Baba: Maa said that you better make up!
You can read my take on first meeting Aditya’s parents here. In short, when I first met Maa, Aditya and I had downgraded our relationship to “an icy friendship” due to quarreling too much.
Aditya: By the way, the only reason that Baba and I didn’t talk over the phone while I was at the university was because Baba telephone conversations are always telegraphic.
<general laughter >
The first question he asks you is “How are you?”, and by the time you have said, “I’m good” the conversation is over and the phone has been hung up.
Maa: [He’s like that] with everybody.
Yes, yes he is.
Aditya: Yes, with everybody. When we were growing up… I mean, I don’t even know how common telephones were when they were growing up. When we were growing up, Baba used to be away, you know, and we had to do trunk calls. And in the middle of the night, it’d be super expensive, and Maa would be running down the stairs at 11:30 pm, because, you know, there’s a trunk call with Baba.
For Americans or others scratching their heads, a trunk call is the British English (and, apparently, Indian English) word for a long-distance call, especially one routed by a real, live operator.
GG: So what were your expectations for a daughter-in-law? Before you knew about me or anything – just general expectations.
Maa: I want only the good relationship and to look after my children – daughter-in-law or son-in-law. Look after my children, and a good relationship with us. Nothing else.
For the following anecdote, Bhabi is Aditya’s sister-in-law, Dada is his older brother, and Didi is his older sister.
Baba: You see, before Bhabi’s marriage [to Dada]… Bhabi was in school, Dada was in hostel, they had not met each other. They were in class 7 or 8. And she was learning some dance in Calcutta. She came to our house because Didi was in the same class – Bhabi had missed some classes, and she came to make up those missed classes. I was working away from Calcutta, and I used to come [home] during the weekends. I came… it was a duplex, our house was. I was climbing the stairs and I saw Bhabi. And when she came, I said, “Who is this girl?” And Maa said, “Didi’s dance mate.” And I said, “I would like to get a girl like that as daughter-in-law [for Dada]”… By God’s grace, that has happened. Of course it happened after…
<argument starts over how long >
Five, six years, let us say. So after that, I always expected that Aditya’s wife would be something like Bhabi. In all respects.
GG: Punjabi?
Baba: No, not Punjabi. I don’t look at Bhabi as Punjabi. See, this language or religion – I feel everything is the same. So I don’t look at a Punjabi or American or European… My thing is – “similar” means – she should be intelligent, sharing, and good in studies, plus she should be something where we are comfortable, my son is comfortable, and she should be someone who gets into a relation[ship] for lifelong.
Because there are a lot of cases I have found where people don’t – the girls or the boys – don’t think beyond certain time: four years, five years, ten years. But I always felt that my children should get a partner for the whole life. Not part time or, I would say, “live together” type. That is the type of girl I expected. She should be presentable, so that people don’t say – don’t take it – that she doesn’t fit into the family. I feel that that is a bigger thing, because I still feel family is much bigger than self. And that was what [were] my expectations, and I feel that I am quite happy on that one respect. The rest of the things, small things, would be different between individuals. Those better to not be discussed, because everyone has their own way of looking at things. But my general expectations for my daughter-in-law or son-in-law were the same. It is not that [the expectations] for daughter-in-law different [from] son-in-law.
While I suspect that Baba cares a bit more for what others think than I do, I must admit I was quite pleased with his perspective on this – I really couldn’t ask for a more considerate and reasonable set of expectations.
GG: What do you remember Aditya telling you about me before you met me? Like on the phone.
Baba: He didn’t tell me anything!
GG: Aditya, is this true?
Aditya: Because Baba’s phone calls are so short!
Baba: That has already been said. Whatever he said –
GG: But he went back to India one summer.
Baba: That is true, but Aditya is very close to – my children are all more close to – Maa for such things, for such topics. So they always spoke to her, and she only told me that much that was…
Maa: Screened!
<general laughter>
Baba: Yeah, little bit. I always got a filtered version.
GG: Okay, Maa, what do you remember Aditya telling you about me?
Maa: In 2006 when he came, he told me. And I told him it is okay, make your studies properly, and then you can do whatever you feel like, I don’t mind. And what else…?
Aditya: Nah, we talked about it when I was in Madras, right?
Maa: So long time back… That time I [hadn’t yet met] her, right? So I told [him] that I did not know what type of girl she is. I was not very keen… Hmmm… I am very scared that time, because he should complete his studies and things. Because in our [country], in India, a girl or boy’s future is very… We are very concerned about their future. All parents [are this way]. So I was a little scared that he may not—
Baba: – do well in his exams or things like that.
GG: Is there anything you wish Aditya had told, that might have helped your fears more or your concerns?
<general confusion over the meaning of the question>
Okay, before you met me, maybe you had some concerns… Was there anything that Aditya could have told you, that could have helped those concerns?
Baba: No, I don’t think with me [there were any concerns].
Maa: Yeah, I was concerned. Because he told [me] that you have some health problem. So I was concerned if it was very serious type. I don’t know anything. So I thought that health problem was very very… <worried hand gesture>.
I have a genetic blood-clotting disorder – which I only found out my freshman year while dating Aditya – which will be a lifelong concern, although it is perfectly managable with a little daily medication and awareness. At that time, however, it was a new-ish thing, and neither Aditya nor I were sure of how serious it would turn out to be. Luckily, it falls more on the side of, say, adult asthma or a severe allergy in seriousness than, for example, diabetes.
Aditya: See, part of the problem – the reason I spoke more to Maa than to Baba – [was] because I always did feel that… Baba and I had talked about things in passing, not detailed things… I always felt that Baba would be supportive, no matter what decision I took, you know? Like I always say, Sachin gets all this advice before he goes in to bat, and once he goes in to bat, it’s up to him, he has to make the decisions. And I always felt that Baba would be supportive over whatever decision I took. I was more concerned about how Maa would react. That’s why I talked more with Maa about it than with Baba.
GG: (to Maa) Does that surprise you?
Maa: No, [I’m] not surprised. But I was concerned when he said that she has some health problem – that was why I was concerned. But when I have seen you, I told him, that she is the best for you.
GG: Okay. Anything else that you thought when you met me for the first time?
Maa: I felt that you were very, um, that your approach was very nice. Your way of talking, your behavior, I liked it very much. Even I told my relations in India, “She is a nice girl.”
GG: So, on some of the blogs I read, some of the Indian parents aren’t very happy about their sons or their daughters dating an American. So people give out various advice, like “you should do this when you meet them”, or “you should do that”. For instance, one of the things that they advise is that you should dress up very nicely, maybe wear a sari when you meet the parents for the first time.
<Baba makes a wincing face>
Maa: I am also no. Even to Bhabi, I told [that it was not necessary] … You are an American girl, but even to Bhabi…
Baba: If my daughter can put on trousers, can go [out] in skirts, what is wrong with my daughter-in-law – someone else’s daughter [doing that sort of thing]. That is how I look at things.
Aditya’s parents are typically very pleased when I wear Indian-style clothing, but I have never felt any pressure – even while in India – to wear Indian clothing instead of jeans and a t-shirt.
Maa: Even to Bhabi I said that, you can wear whatever you like in my house. One thing I told her, when people from village come –
Baba: Yeah, social functions that is, it is better that you put on sari. It is not a compulsion [compulsory] to put on saris, she may put on salwar kameeze also. But [with a sari] that is easier to blend in, because everyone else will be in sari. If you come in sari you will feel a little [more] comfortable.
While I think you can fit into Indian cities just fine in Western clothes, I felt more comfortable – and slightly less conspicuous – wearing salwar kameezes or saris in more rural towns.
Maa: And, nah, one thing I told Bhabi, when people from villages, remote villages – we have got relations there – so when they will come it is better to wear saris. Because they will come for half an hour, for one hour. They will see that this girl is settled in [well] with this family, and their impression is good for the daughter-in-law.
Baba: Because I feel, that people should talk good about our, my family, and of course my daughter-in-law is part of it.
Maa: Even my daughter follows the same thing, it is not [just] for my daughter-in-law.
Aditya: Did you have any concerns, that, you know, other people, people who would be visiting from remote villages… Did you have any concerns that they would see the relationship as a bad thing, and would think less of the family?
Baba: Actually, in our family and among our relations, I have got the impression that generally I do right things. Therefore, in my house, if something happens – what I have accepted – generally the general impression is that that is right. So I never had any doubt that if I am comfortable, and if my daughter-in-law is comfortable with me, that others would have anything to say. So that advantage I have. In my family or my relations, I have a different, I would say, position. And it puts my daughter-in-law in a little elevated position.
Maa: In our family nobody told anything. Even neighbors… Well, I’m not really sure, I’ve never had any concerns [about what they say].
Baba: I have the one advantage that often, when things go wrong, and two parties speak, and to one party I have said okay, the other party, they also accept it. So that way, I know that if I have accepted something nobody would say or make a remark that would be negative.
Maa: Everybody says that, “If he agrees, than it is okay.”
Baba: I knew that my children will not make a mistake or take a wrong position knowingly. And if even they have taken a wrong position knowingly, I would scold them in private, but I would stand by them.
GG: Baba, do you want to say something about the first time you met me? I came with Bear [my father’s golden lab]…
Baba: Yeah, what I remember, is that I had my own expectations. And I feel that I was quite happy that you met most of those.
Maa: But not all…
Baba: Hmmm, but, mostly. Because one this is that you were very easy-going, you were not stiff, you didn’t want to show off, that is what impressed me most. Generally what happens is that, I feel, courtship is a process of selling.
GG: To Aditya or to you?
Baba: No, anybody. Why? You see, when it is not marriage, it is courtship… I am meeting somebody for two or three hours. I put on my best dress, my best perfume, comb my hair thrice, twice shave. That is because I want to create an impression. But in married life, what we find, early in the morning before brushing your teeth you meet your husband. So that is a completely different [thing]. Before you get into that relation, you are trying to make an impression – like packaging of any consumer goods… The packaging is good, you accept it, only after opening do you know, uh-oh, mistake, mistake. <Baba shakes his finger>
<general laughter>
Okay. Therefore, generally, when somebody comes on such thing, my impression is that they try to impress. If elders are present in India that happens. Like when I went to meet Maa, the whole family was looking at me [to see] what I [would] do.
Maa: But, you know…
Baba: That is different! We will talk to you afterwards. You will get your chance, okay!
<general laughter>
Anything that is possible! The meals that the would-be bride has not cooked, they are produced as if she has cooked. The handiwork that she has not done, they will try to [show it off]. And if she has done, they will come running, “She has done it!” They will make her sit…
Maa: Earlier…
Baba: Okay, nowadays they don’t do it, but something like it still goes on. Therefore, I always say, that salesmanship part of it I wanted to eliminate. After that, the person I can meet, he or she is the right person. When you came, you came like a girl next door, you were very easy-going, you didn’t have the hesitation for the first time, meeting a foreigner, [meeting] Aditya’s father, and when you have got all those horrible pictures of Indian in-laws…
<general laughter>
Yet, after that, the way you came and reacted was quite good.
I wish I had arrived like the girl next door – instead, I arrived a bit sweaty from the mile & a half walk from my dad’s house to Dada’s place, where Maa and Baba were staying. But Bear got a nice long walk out of it, and I got bonus points for bringing the dog along.
GG: And so what expectation didn’t I meet? Maa said that I didn’t meet all the expectations.
Baba: No, that is what Maa has said. I have not said it as of yet.
Maa: That I will say after the interview. Off record!
I ended up badgering them into telling at least one expectation I failed to meet “on record” – but that will have to wait for the next part of the interview!
Related posts:
July 10th, 2009 at 5:40 am
Ha! I love Aditya's parents. They sound a lot like my in-laws. My MIL has said that she knows that her sons are good boys and that they'll make good decisions because she raised them to do so. I think that's a great attitude to have.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:04 am
One thing to note here is that I'm sure Ma and Baba's concept of “girlfriend” is more along the lines of just friends – dating without sex. When they say, “my children know right from wrong”, in Desi speak that usualy means they know not to have sex.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Perhaps you should ask for them to clarify that, rather than assuming that you know for sure.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
OK, you can field this question to them:
How do you feel about your kids have sex before marriage?
If your son Aditya or your daughter had 8 sexual partners before marriage – what is your view on that?
OK as long as birth control methods are used?
Any fear of STD transmissions?
July 10th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Its interesting you ask these questions, because I think it does say something significant about how you seem to approach this subject.
To my parents (as well as me), relationship and sex are two different subjects (albeit related). If you “date” people with the sole objective of having sex with them, that's probably the kind of thing my parents would say falls in the “bad intention” category…
The reasons I would never ask these questions to my parents, are the same reasons why your boyfriend would not ask your father whether he should let you be on top more often during sex, or your father's opinions on oral sex…
#1. decorum
#2. it is -frankly- not their business/concern
#3. (goes with #1) these are not things you normally ask your parents.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
btw, what do any of these questions have to do with intercultural relationships??
July 10th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
“”To my parents (as well as me), relationship and sex are two different subjects (albeit related). If you “date” people with the sole objective of having sex with them, that's probably the kind of thing my parents would say falls in the “bad intention” category…”"
Aditya, I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with you. That's why I said that “girlfriend” has a different connotation to your parents than it does to most Western readers who would drop by this blog.
July 10th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Except that you haven't made any case (i.e. statistics) for why most Western readers would automatically assume girlfriend = sex partner. If you want to make generalizations on this blog, at least, back your statements up or shut up. I'm not down with cultural generalizations of any group.
You also have no reason to believe, one way or another, what Aditya's parents think about the word “girlfriend” – unless you have had personal interaction with them or can point to textual evidence, again, you have no case. And statistics about what Indians generally mean by the word “girlfriend” – if you could produce them – wouldn't help either, since you can't judge any particular individual based on statistics from a group he belongs to.
July 10th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
This is great! Thanks to all of you for doing this!
(…and, I have to say, I am sooo jealous of your easy communication with your in-laws. While I think many of my in-laws' responses would be very similar, language is such a larger barrier for us – there's no way we could have this kind of a conversation without much of it being translated back and forth. At least, not yet!)
July 10th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
One thing I would like to know, and I'm sure others would like to know as well, is if you asked them their advice on how to deal with Indian Parents who have vowed to disown a child if he/she marries someone not of their liking….before even meeting the intended.
I would really like to hear their opinion on how to handle that or if they have any advice.
I'm sure you haven't had time to read it yet…(because I just posted it), but STILL (after eight months) Bear's family refuse to speak to me or atleast agree to meet me. We announced our wedding to them and invited them to come and they threw down the gauntlet with the “We will disown you and consider ourselves to have only one son” threat.
I (we) both feel this will change over time and so we responded with our continued love for them, our respect for their decision, our desire for them to come and for us to be a part of the family. We ended it with this is their decision now, whether or not to disown us. And GG, it's hurting Bear so much. Me as well, but this is his parents whom he loves so much and I know it's hurting him horribly. Do they have anything to say on what we can do? Shall we just continue to try and talk to them or should we give them some space?
Lots of love and GG? Thanks for this. Thank you so much. >:D< HUGS.
July 10th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Gori Girl, calm down.
The textual evidence for what Baba thinks about “girlfriend” is in the text you wrote above. You go back and read what he said (and what you wrote), its all there.
Regarding Western readers assuming girlfriend/boyfriend equals sex partner. Please, I've been to college. Need statistics on adults having pre-marital sex in the USA? Look them up. I don't think the rest of us need statistics to know that it's going on (and we're doing it, LOL). Look, I don't care who's having sex with whom and when. Just cleared something for the readers, that's all.
You said it yourself – you and Aditya's pre-marital relationship had cooled down to an “icy friendship” due to quarrelling. I can see why.
July 10th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Auroracoda,
My husband's had to flee from his home to be with me, it was that traumatic and we were never sure we would be able to go back to visit. My husband actually feared for his life….we got married secretly and left without knowing if they would ever come around. To make a story short, it took some time for them to calm down (and his brothers) but they eventually did and his dad called me his beloved daughter the other day when he called. I was told a baby would make things right, but given time (and no baby) they did turn around. So my observation is it is tough, but they will eventually come back in line and accept your husband decision.
Interesting post GG, and look forward to reading more.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:44 am
You are fantastic at stereotyping. Truly, it's your gift.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:09 am
Actually, there isn't textual evidence for what you claimed; perhaps you should have taken some philosophy or lit interpret courses while at college? And some statistics courses, of course, since you seem to think that having been to one (or perhaps a few?) colleges in the US, and having lived in the US gives you a random sample of the US population.
As Baba says, the US is a huge country. And if there's one thing I've learned from living in various parts of the US, it's that attitudes, beliefs, and yes, culture does shift significantly from one area to another. Of course, you only need to open up some state level data to figure that out as well… but I suppose it's easier to just assume your experiences are the norm, and stereotype everyone on the basis of them.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:31 am
Aurora, we discussed that somehwhat in the next part, although I didn't ask that exact question. Perhaps I can do a follow-up interview later in the summer when the whole clan gets together in California… in which cases I'll solicit questions from you all first. (Frankly, I wasn't expecting Maa & Baba to be so comfortable answering all these questions as they were.)
July 11th, 2009 at 6:59 am
What is the main source of the angst?
1. Is it missing out on the fat dowry
2. Grandchildren and religion of grandchildren
3. Disgrace among the caste and marring marriage prospects of relatives
July 11th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Hi Adi and GG,
i am a Bengali myself and i can tell u that many of what ur Baba said is actually a reflection of the ideas of my Maa.
My mom often gives the same “salesman” example on relationship issues.
i think one IMPORTANT FACT that helped you guys is that Adi and his parents are BENGALIS. Bengalis, particularly the educated ones, are by nature more liberal than others from different parts of India.
For example, having a girlfriend and taking them to meet parents is perfectly normal in bengal.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Sigh…….
Textual evidence from your father-in-law:
Baba: As long as you are not doing anything wrong, if your aim, your studies are going properly, I think that there is nothing wrong in having girlfriends. How you take that relation matters… Like, I had in India at one time I knew a lot of girls – and of course, my parents were also very liberal. Even today, if I meet them, if I get a chance to meet them, there’s nothing wrong in this, I always felt. Yes, if somebody has some bad intention, that is different. For that…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Notice how in the context of speaking of what he refers to as “girlfriends”, he refers to himself: Like, I had in India at one time I knew a lot of girls – and of course, my parents were also very liberal. Even today, if I meet them, if I get a chance to meet them, there’s nothing wrong in this, I always felt.
“knowing a lot of girls” is given as an example in the context of “girlfriends” and “today…if I get a chance to meet them, there's nothing wrong in this”.
So, like your husband Aditya and I know, his concept of girlfriend his “friend”.
To qoute your husband Aditya:
“To my parents (as well as me), relationship and sex are two different subjects (albeit related). If you “date” people with the sole objective of having sex with them, that's probably the kind of thing my parents would say falls in the “bad intention” category…”
I'm not faulting you for not being able to read between the lines of desi-speak or not being very familiar with the general mileu of Desi attitudes regarding relationships, but at the same time when you are being taught something by Desis like your husband and myself, defer, defer. But deference is something White Americans are not all that good at, I guess.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Yeah, see, changing your argument midstream might work on other people, but it doesn't fly here. You're conflating two concepts in a very haphazard way.
Your original claim was “Ma and Baba's concept of 'girlfriend' is more along the lines of just friends – dating without sex.”
I can guarantee you that this is simply not true – their concept of “girlfriend” is not along the lines of “just friends” – and why are you conflating “just friends” with “dating without sex” anyways? I mean, I don't go to second base people who I'm “just friends” with, and I doubt Maa or Baba do either.
Your second original claim was that “When they say, “'my children know right from wrong', in Desi speak that usualy (sic) means they know not to have sex.” Again, simply not true, as I happen to know first-hand.
I won't stereotype like you did with your “White Americans” comment (by the way, that's a first strike – stereotyping is strictly prohibited on this site), but you are apparently very good at making false assumptions. Well done!
July 11th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Also, I'm not clear on what you mean by “being taught something by Desis like your husband and myself.”
July 11th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Okay, so I spent a good few minutes of time trying to understand MMDP's point, based on her words. Took me back to reading student papers! I finally had to get the second view of my husband to decipher what MMDP might have meant from the somewhat garbled explanation above. What I think she's trying to say is that when Gori's FIL used the word “girlfriend,” he probably meant “a girl who is a friend,” with little to no sexuality involved at all. In other words, a platonic relationship.
While one could probably make the gross generalization that many “White Americans” would associate the word “girlfriend” with a sexual relationship, that certainly isn't true for all sub-cultures within the U.S. In a hardcore Mormon or evangelical Christian community, for example, “girlfriends” and “boyfriends” might not necessarily be in a sexual relationship (or at least not openly to their parents!). This just points out the problem with generalizing.
As to the final comment, wow. The level of condescension is almost staggering here (to the point of being kind of amusing, actually). Why should Gori (or any of us involved in relationships with Desis, for that matter) “defer” when being “taught” the so-called “Indian perspective”? As if there is a single “Indian perspective” that somehow is injected into all Desis upon birth? And (as my husband rightly pointed out) as if by virtue of being in a relationship with a Desi individual, Gori (and the rest of us by proxy) aren't at least in some measure becoming “Desi” ourselves?
Seems like MMDP is a rather angry individual. There's really no reason for such hostility and negativity!
July 11th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Obviously, the word “girlfriend” can mean different things to different people (including western readers of the blog)
I still disagree with your fundamental assertion here, that “girlfriend” automatically means “sex partner” for Western readers… I know *many* americans for whom that wasnt/isnt true, and many of them eventually got married to their “girlfriends/boyfriends”.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“when you are being taught something by Desis like your husband”
haha… i didnt realize i was teaching anything here
normally i only ramble “teachings” if the discussion goes into Hindu theology / postcolonial theory…
July 11th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
I am curious to know why MMPatni, AKA, Pardesi Gori, is being given such a prominent platform here. Why do the two of you engage with her every single time? SHE ADMITTED THAT SHE IS PARDESI GORI ALREADY. Jeez.
July 11th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Really? Was it here or on another blog?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
I called her out on one of the other posts — maybe the hug one, and she responded with how I might be right, and then went on to make the kind of comment only Pardesi Gori would make.
She is very easy to detect. Her usernames usually have some Hindi word in them usually, and she often veers into sexual topics. I don't know why people here and on Sepia find it so hard to detect her.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Also, does she have a dynamic IP or something? Or is she using a proxy? Either way, between her IP and her commenting style, you should be able to detect her.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Yup, you're right – thanks for bringing this to my attention. It's a different IP, but is ultimately coming from the same location, as I discovered with a bit of net detective work. Interesting.
I like to give people as much chance as possible, because I really dislike censorship, but Pardesi ran out of chance a long time ago. I knew she was posting at White Indian Housewife under three different handles (& when that was discovered, she made up some story about three roommates all commenting *rolls eyes*), but I hadn't quite made the connection.
*wink* SportsFan, you're the official Pardesi detector! Let me know if you see any more suspicious behavior (but not in a creepy, McCarthyism way).
July 12th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Yeah, she is at White Indian Housewife as well but I don't know the blogger there well enough to feel the need to out her there. I saw her ridiculous story about three roommates as well and had a chuckle. I might send Sharell a note, just in case. Or maybe others who post there may consider letting her.
Sounds like she has a dynamic IP, but not a proxy. If she has a dynamic IP, you will have to keep banning her over and over again.
I don't think you should feel bad about “censoring” because you are dealing with an obvious troll. You are enforcing basic internet etiquette here. We really don't need another discussion about PG's obsession with teenage premarital sex hijacking the discussion. If we are lucky, she will find her way to Barely Legal, where she can have all the fun she wants (although why a PG, a middle aged single woman, obsesses about this is beyond me).
Anyway, I enjoy your blog!
July 12th, 2009 at 5:40 am
I pointed it out to Sharell already that “Cant beat em, Join em!” is the very same Pardesi Gori. Did'nt have much impact and she's still posting her xenophobic racist crap on that website.
Someone made the comment to her that should be “Cant beat em, Joine me”! Made me laugh…..
July 12th, 2009 at 5:48 am
I think Sharell hasn't been hanging out on these web sites as long, and hasn't seen as much of the trollish behavior as we have, so she's being charitable and giving her the benefit of the doubt.
July 12th, 2009 at 6:48 am
“i think one IMPORTANT FACT that helped you guys is that Adi and his parents are BENGALIS. Bengalis, particularly the educated ones, are by nature more liberal than others from different parts of India”
HA!
July 12th, 2009 at 8:48 am
haha so now PG is claiming to be a Desi
July 12th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Oh my gosh, just came over here to read the very interesting interview and comment on it, and found all these references to Ms Troll. You're right, I am very new to this and don't often get the chance to have a look though all the comments on many blogs. I'll be a lot more vigilant about troll monitoring now!
July 12th, 2009 at 10:55 am
GG, I was really fascinated to read this interview and can't wait for the second installment. Maa and Baba sound like wonderfully wise and open minded people — great in laws to have.
I was most interested in the questions about their concerns over the reactions of people from remote villages, as my husband's family were from a village. I know the reactions of the villagers (and even the reactions of relatives now living in Mumbai) was probably the biggest issue for my husband's family. It wasn't just to do with me either. The problems for my mother and father in law actually started when my husband's brother had a love marriage to a girl from a completely different state (Maharastra), not just caste. From what I've been told, my husband's father lost so much face back in the village (apparently he was very well respected there) for letting the marriage go ahead. It was a terrible ordeal for the family, and it took the parents quite a while to accept their new daughter in law. They were obviously worried about losing more face when I came along. But so much credit to them, they decided that the happiness of their children is much more important than the opinions of people from a village that they don't even live in anymore! I'm so grateful to them for their open mindedness, and for giving me a chance. Fortunately, their fears about me haven't eventuated at all. In fact their relatives who live in Mumbai are always more than happy to see me. I do make a conscious effort to dress up like an Indian (sari, bangles, ankles, toe rings, bindi, sindoor, mangal sutra, the works!) as much as possible at all family functions, so I guess that helps. They love it, plus I really enjoy it as well.
Just wish I knew more Hindi so that I could communicate with them all in depth.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I agree – even if it weren't the same person, snark can just be ignored. GG, you do such a good job thinking of interesting posts for this blog (!) – it's unfortunate to then have the comments quickly devolve over and over.
Perhaps you worry that ignoring it will make it look like you accept it – but I don't think that's true. Don't Feed the Trolls is, as SportsFan points out, common internet etiquette – people will know what you're doing. Plus it makes trolls get bored and go away. Just delete any too egregious ones without commentary.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
IP, what do you mean by the term “liberal”? I mean, I'm not knowledgeable enough about the various states and ethnicities in India to comment on differing attitudes, but liberal covers an awful lot of ground – and I suspect means different things to different nationalities.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
That's quite the traumatic story, Sarah, but fits with most (but not all) stories I've heard about parents being unhappy about intercultural relationships. (Like your blog, btw!)
July 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I know that I'm VERY lucky that Maa and Baba (and most of the rest of Aditya's family) speak English as well as they do. Maa's quite shy about it, though.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Not sure if you've been back to the site, but it looks like MMDP is Pardesi Gori with a changed IP address & handle (I owe SportsFan for pointing it out). *rolls eyes* She's banned again.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I'll keep that in mind; thanks for your feedback!
July 12th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Wow, looks like I missed some fun this weekend! I thought MMDP seemed a little odd. (BTW, I'm also thinking at least one of the forum posters might be PG as well.)
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to reading part 2 of the interview.
July 12th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I'll keep that in mind – feel free to email me over anything happening in the forum that you find… a little odd.
July 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Hi Sister,
Just read what Sarah and Aurora said. Those sort of things happen very rarely in bengal. Also look what your in-laws are saying about women's clothes.
Trust me, MY MOM says exactly same things.
Bengali's mostly have a kind of flexibility in their attitude. Obviously with some exceptions. Not surprisingly RELIGIOUS FUNDOS didnot succeed in bengal historically.
Anyways, i am waiting for the next part of the interview.
July 12th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Sarah, thanks so much for this post. Bear and I both read it together this morning and it was like a big sigh of relief that we can see people who are 'past' what we are begining and everything turned out alright for them.
I'm not expecting miracles….but I am hoping for the absolute best.
Also, I'm so sorry you both had to go through that! What a traumatic experience! People always think their situation is bad until they read another person's story….and then we sit back and say “Oh Wow!”
July 12th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I think it's more # 3. And a few other concerns.
July 13th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Most Indians depend on their caste for a whole range of social safety net, since you are aware that the Indian govt services are abysmal
The sub-caste provides job network, food during unemployment, nepotism for job and school slots. easy marriage network and a whole host of services
Even people who have been in the west for 20 years cant afford to alienate their caste
In the caste marriage network, during pre-matrimonial screening, they check whether any relative, such as sibling, cousin, nephew has married out of religion and the alliance will not proceed unless that person has been ex-communicated
In places like Mumbai, where the Shiv Sena is active, and in BJP ruled states, this can even lead to riots
July 13th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Hello. This is the first time I posted a comment to this site but been reading your post for about four months now. I find your site to be very helpful and I don't feel alone dealing with an intercultural realtionship. Not everyone understands what we are going through. I'm so jealous of your inlaws! I'm Asian and in a relationship with my indian bf for quite some time. His mom doesn't approve of our relationship and its taking a toll on us. Your very lucky to have an open minded and understanding in laws! It makes a lot of difference.
July 13th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Hi hopefulgal, I'm glad that the blog has been helpful you – sharing stories (and sometimes advice) so that others in intercultural relationships can hear both the good & the bad is why I started this blog. I hope your boyfirend's mother lightens up a bit – if you want to share more, perhaps you could start a thread in the forums section?
July 14th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
This was really great! Really enjoyed it.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
After reading everyone's comments, thought that someone could give me advice on my situation.
I am in love with a guy that is Hindu. When we met, he was working in US on an H1B Visa & at that time I was unemployed. Then he got laid off because of the economy his consulting agency did not find him another project in USA so he had to return to Delhi. It has been 2 weeks since he has left & we had just begun dating, like only 2 months, but we fell deeply in love. He said he felt comfortable falling in love with me because he thought we had time to be together. On our first date I thought I had asked all the right questions, most importantly, “Will your parents accept me?” He said “yes, they are modern parents”. But I did not know about H1B visa so I did not ask that. But when he found out he was returning, he got depressed and stopped being physical with me because he did not want to hurt me in case he can't stay. But we were together alot up until the day he left. I said that I would marry him for legal reasons so he would not have to leave and if we worked out, we could go to India & have legitimate Hindu wedding & if it didn't we could get it annulled. He would have no part in that whatsoever because he is afraid of his parents reaction, mainly using me to get a green card. Also he thought that we would have more time for me to know his parents and vice versa. Then I offered to bring him back on a fiance visa and he will not do that either, even if it is just for legal reasons, again he said “no” because of what his parents would think. So now we are trying desperately to get him a job that will transfer his H1B Visa to get him back over here so that we can be together. But in this economy, it has not been easy, especially since he does not have an “in-demand” job skill right now. During our short time together, I could tell how much he was in love with me and I fell totally in love with him & could feel how “once in a lifetime” our love could be, if given the chance. But it has to be on his terms. On one hand he tells me not to wait for him but on the other hand he says things that indicate we are going to be together again, he will return to US & that I am his hope. I have found that I can't talk to him about “us” because his mind is so focused on his situation & he's depressed about his situation. So I follow his lead & respect his wishes and don't push him. I told him that I will be here for him when he returns & he likes that I said this & he told me he wants to continue where we left off before he lost his job. I know this is a “once in a lifetime” love & I know he knows it also. We are still very close & talk EVERY day on the phone. And I have also begun to convert to Hinduism, which I had began before I met him. Also, I find that he only talks about his religion when he is in the mood and has refused to answer questions about his caste and sect. I have told him that his parents do not live his life & he said that the “parents” thing is cultural and that he will not lie to his parents & I told him I totally respect that. But then i found out he lied to his parents about him being laid off of his job, at first. I know I can't push him too much so I have learned when to back off.
I am just so upset over this whole situation because I feel that he is the one for me and we could have something great if we weren't split up by this horrible job thing & he knows this also, but won't go against what his parents will not approve of.
Can someone please help me to make sense of what is cultural things about the way he is acting or if it is just pride, or a little of both. I need some insight. Also, He is 30 years old.
July 17th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Hi JaneDoe666 – I've set up a section in the forums here for individuals to share their personal stories and ask for advice – otherwise comments like yours often get lost at the bottom of a post & people don't see it. I encourage you to repost your story there (email me at gorigirl.admin@gmail.com if you have any troubles registering for the forum), so you'll get more responses.
October 26th, 2009 at 9:55 am
This is a great entry, to read the view of the parents. I haven’t been reading that long, but how long were you together before he introduced you to them?
October 26th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Step, my post on first meeting Aditya’s parents can be found here – but I don’t think I included a timeline there. I met Aditya’s mother a little over two years after we had started dating (however, we weren’t actually dating at the time I met her!), and then I met Aditya’s father about 4 months after that.