I’m hoisting up from the comments a request for advice from a reader, Travelergal, who’s run into a bit of a sticky situation with her Indian boyfriend’s family. Her boyfriend, R- just informed his family about her, and, well, the response was not as enthusiastic as one might hope. R- has emailed her about their responses, and now Travelergal is trying to figure out the best course of action:
I need your advice so here goes…my boyfriend recently told his parents about me (he is in India right now so of course he sent me this by email). I am a white American girl and he is a South Indian man. Are their comments normal? What can I do at this point to begin the process of “Slow Acclimation”? I want them to eventually accept me but I have no idea where to begin or what I should do at this point! Any advice would be great!!
Travelergal included her boyfriend’s email, which I’ve put below the fold, along with my responses (in red). I’m sure she’d appreciate all of you chiming in with suggestions, advice, or sympathy as well.
Note: this letter has been edited to remove names at the request of Travelergal
R-’s email to Travelergal
As expected my family was having a set of NO’s to the relationship. I mentioned about it yesterday evening. Everyone was surprised and they were making fun of me.
First off, let me say that there’s never a good – or easy – way to tell your family about something you expect them to be upset about. I do think that it was a good idea for R- to wait until a visit to India to tell his family, if only because that way he was able to evaluate his family’s body language and facial expressions, which can tell you a lot beyond what simple words & tones convey. It’s unfortunate that they teased him, though perhaps not as unfortunate that the family was so surprised. If at all possible, I think it’s a good idea to get parents & other family used to the idea that you’re the type who might do something so “crazy” as getting involved in an intercultural romance. Most people don’t like change, and they especially don’t like unexpected, surprising changes in their close friends & family. Obviously that ship has sailed for R- & Travelergal, but for anyone else in the same situation, I’d suggest dropping general hints very early on in your relationship that you hang around people of other cultures & races, etc. A “we’re not pleased, but we kinda expected it” response is most likely preferable to a “you’re dating who?!?” response.
Mum:- She was having a totally against it. She had the opinion of American people not sticking to a relationship like Indians do, she said that u would leave me and if that happens then i shall be all alone in my life coz there is lot of disrespect for a second marriage or relationship in India. She said its all a feeling that passes away with time. I was trying to please her that it was not gonna happen like that i wud say it but she would not listen she would stick to her thought of u being white is ending up in divorce. She mentioned about the cultural aspect I tried to explain how u were learning to cook and talk in Telugu. She says that it would put us as “cheap” in society. She has a big NO in her mind
Sadly, as R- points out later in the email, Americans are known worldwide for the nation’s high divorce rate. If you’re an American dating someone from a family-oriented, traditional-type country, expect for this issue to be raised at least once by a family member. It happened in my relationship too! And if you have no other information about a person, other than their nationality, it makes perfect statistical sense to bet that the American is going to divorce before the Indian will. However, R-’s mother has more information about Travelergal than just her nationality – for one thing, R- chose to date her instead of any of the other pretty fishes in the sea. If R- can convince his mother that Travelergal is not your typical American it’d probably help. Repetition, time, and continuous examples is the key here. The other concerns that R’s mother raises all strike me as being very typical “traditional” concerns: the low possibility of a second marriages, dating/being in a “love match” as just a feeling that would pass, and how an intercultural relationship/future divorce is frowned upon in (Indian) society.
Sister:- She was also in the same way she started saying that it was all infatuation i was surprised to her response. She said u can’t do this to your family who raised u 25yrs. She was totally doubting about me being a serious guy in this relationship which I’m i told her that I was sure it was not infatuation. She tells me that i had to lose 90% of my life where as u will lose 10% of ur life in this relationship. It was rather surprising to see a youngster not able to dissolve intercultural relationship.
R-’s sister’s response also strikes me as somewhat typical. And, sadly, it is completely true that, by being in an intercultural relationship with an American, R-’s family could lose face in their community in India. This is part of what I was talking about in my post on how others are affected by your intercultural relationship. I’m not sure exactly what the 90%/10% comment is about – perhaps R-’s sister fears that he’ll lose his Indian culture by living in the US & dating an American? Or she might be referring tot the costs that could occur to each person should the relationship fail.
Dad:- Dad was the most understanding. He believes in love he believes in “Love is blind” but he would say that it would disrupt everything. The ripple effect that our relationship has is going to be pain. I tried to tell him that u were really understanding and it would be a sin to just break up or end the relationship due to the fact that “U were american”. He has lot of respect for me and he understands what life is. It is me now thinking about him.
I’m glad R- & Travelergal have one family member sticking up for them. The dad seems like a good dude – aware of the real problems that will likely result for the family from the intercultural marriage, but somewhat accepting of the relationship nevertheless. I suggest that R & Travelergal address his father’s concerns about the “ripple effect” as much as possible, and try to keep the line of communication open to him.
After saying all this i also feel if there is only one person in my family who tried at least to understand me and u how many people in the society and relative would respect u and treat us as the same way as Indian couple.
One quick note here: R- & Travelergal aren’t an Indian couple, so I don’ think they should either expect or want to be treated just like an Indian couple in his family’s society. Certainly, they should be treated just as respectfully, but allowances & compromises will need to be made by all parties for the real differences in the relationship. When Travelergal eventually meets the family, they need to ready for the fact that she won’t be as adapt in their world, and she’ll have to work hard to fit into R-’s family.
They all had “DIVORCE” as their main weapon they would constantly say this and put me to calm as they know i don’t have any answer for that and unfortunately we are victims of divorce rate in US
I waited for this moment and now that it happened i think its a long process for them to accept u. I think we need to work on this. I do not want to leave u but let us be sure from both the sides to avoid any mishaps in future.
It will be a long process to get to acceptance, and I’m glad that R- realizes this. My husband’s family took a little while to warm up to the idea of a white daughter-in-law too. I think it’s very important to understand that his family wasn’t expecting this to happen, and they’re probably flailing around blindly. It’ll take some time for them to process the idea, and incorporate it into their “vision of reality”, if you will. I think you can speed this along a bit by showing & telling them ways that they can relate to you. It seems like R- has already stared that by explaining how you’re studying Telugu & Indian cooking, but only your actions over time will show his words to be true.
I’m happy that i have a family who worry about me and see what is there in our relationship for me but it also saddens me when they say it would not work …there r lot of misconceptions/beliefs to be broken and lot of acceptance and approval to be achieved.
ARE U READY?
for all the cultural lessons…all the disrespect with me…all the petty things that u should learn …all norms and conditions that get applied to u when u are around the family … this list is big ..I’m not asking for u to change but i feel there is lot of things u should learn and feel before committing coz i do not want u to be a complete stranger till u meet my parents(if it comes)
This is absolutely wonderful – I really applaud R-’s perspective here. It’s important for both people to be on the same page, and aware of the difficulties that will come from two cultures in one relationship.
I’M READY… to face the problems but i need lot of help from u….hope u will think and reply.
Yours lovingly
R-
My general take on R-’s family’s reactions
Frankly, I’m not surprised by any of the comments of R-’s family. These concerns are very “typical” for an Indian family, but they’re valid concerns, and ones you need to address.
First, consider what knowledge base they’re starting from. How much do they know about American culture? How much do they know about you? Aditya’s parents had never been to the US when he announced that he was dating me, so most of what they knew about American culture came from Hollywood and other media. I’ve written a bit about how Aditya and I did to address his parent’s concerns here, but obviously not every strategy is going to work for every family.
Second, start addressing their concerns about you, one by one. Obviously, you can’t change the fact that divorce rates are high in the US, but you can show how you’re committed to R-, and to family generally. Since their biggest concern seems to be that the relationship will eventually break up, leaving R- stranded, the best medicine is just time, as hard as that sounds. I also think a lot of concerns family can have stems from the “otherness” of intercultural relationships – you’re not what they’re used to, and they aren’t sure how to relate to you, or what to expect from you. What they’ve heard about Americans tells them to expect for you to not be serious about your relationship. Counter that! Steady communication from R-, and eventually from you, about the strength of your relationship and how you can “fit” into the family is very important. If you keep repeating the message, via phone calls, emails, & letters, at least they won’t be able to ignore the issue – and eventually they might start believing what you say.
I think you two have started off very well with the “slow acclimation” by having R- tell his family straight-up while he was visiting India. I also think it’s great that you’re making an effort to learn about his culture via the Telugu lessons and the Indian cooking. I’d suggest continuing with that, and adding in other bits of Indian culture as time & comfort level (on your part!) allow. I’m not at all suggesting you change who you are to try to become the perfect Indian daughter, but rather that you try to find subjects where you can meet R-’s family on a common ground. Since it seems that they’re quite uncomfortable with the entire situation, it means that you’ll have to make the effort.
Finally, learning more about R-’s particular family and community will probably help you figure out other things that could help your efforts with his family, and prepare you for when you communicate with them, or eventually meet. (I don’t know much about Telugu families, so I can’t be much help in the specifics). While it seems like he has a great attitude about helping you out here, there may be a lot of things he wouldn’t even think to tell you about, as they’re so natural to him. One thing that really helped me out here was taking a Hinduism course at the same time as Aditya (he was just in it for the easy A). We’d talk about the course topics, and I’d ask about how things worked in his family, and I’d end up hearing five or ten stories from his childhood. I don’t think many people are in a position to take a course like that, but a great alternative is reading fiction & nonfiction books about India and Indian culture together, and then discussing them in relation to his experiences.
So, my main three: address their concerns, keep the communication lines open, and work at understanding his culture (and therefore his family’s reactions).
I hope all of this has been of some help, Travelergal, and I’m wishing the best of luck for you and R- in your efforts to bring his family around! Does anyone else have any suggestions?
6. May 2008 at 12:01 am
Wow! What a great email!
Hats off to your boy!
6. May 2008 at 7:57 am
My man’s family had a similar-but-worse reaction the first time he told them about me. Some people’s reactions were less reluctance and more anger. (The divorce thing came up for us, too!) He listened to what they were concerned about, but didn’t ever hint that he would change his mind, and eventually they came around. If R is set on it, he can wait his family out and eventually the person you are will overcome the stereotype they imagine you are.
6. May 2008 at 8:02 am
Oh! Also, they might be confused about whether you plan to get married or not. Often families don’t meet SOs unless marriage is in the plan, and they may be confused about how to react to you if he just called you his “girlfriend”. His family could be thinking, “Should I even bother to develop a relationship with her if you might not be together for long?” If you do plan to get married, tell them because it will help. If you don’t know, decide as soon as you can. Weddings and subsequent babies soften the hardest of hearts, so if that’s in your plan, it might help to talk about it with them when you’re ready.
6. May 2008 at 9:17 am
This is excellent dialogue and great points made by Gori. Kudos to R for coming forward and tackling these issues head on. R and Travelgal: you found the right place to talk about these issues. Here, on Gori, we have a generally positive, “light at the end of the tunnel” attitude so if you stick with things, stay true to yourself, that light will reveal itselt…
Now, my R (a Telugu, South Indian) used the sister’s 90/10 argument on me for a while!! Sometimes I think he still has some residual beliefs in it. The idea is if the South Indian man chooses the non-Indian girl he will lose 90% of his support system, whereas the American girl will only lose the guy (not her whole family). I could kinda see the logic…but I thought it was mostly bunk considering the way R and I started off (i.e. he was still being “dutiful” to this Indian girl he was seeing while I waited until he fulfilled his “duty” to start dating him. The situation was OH SO INDIAN but it was really I who was putting myself all out there for him–not the other way around).
Anyway, about the 90/10 the question I have is…do you want 90% support from a bunch of people who don’t give two hoots about what you really want for your own life? Or, do you want to take a chance on one person who will unconditionally support and love you…most of the time unselfishlessly? Once R knew that person was me, he did agree to take that chance on this “ten percent” I guess. And–sigh–ok i guess he needed time to see that I was serious about this–but boy did he take his time. I feel like R really did kind of “test” me to make sure it was consistent and legit in that I would be there for him of the “ninety percent” bailed on him. I think it was a little unfair to me to have to prove this though (because I was really putting myself out there, on the line, for a long time, too). I struggled with feeling like his feelings and situation were more *precious* than mine … maybe I do still struggle with how that panned out… but then again, I think that just points to the ebb and flow of a relationship. Sometimes one partner has to sacrifice more than the other and other times vice versa. Nothing is ever perfectly equal…and perhaps the 90/10 stuff I had to wade through is just an example of how ALL relationships can be at some point.
6. May 2008 at 9:29 am
Ahhh and if they are Telugu I can help!!! They are a special bunch
. Heheheh 
6. May 2008 at 9:49 am
Sigh. I can also peak to how Amma said Travelgal would be considered “cheap” in their society if she tried to cook/learn Telugu.
I’m really trying *not* to stereotype here… but according to many, many of my Indian friends and based upon my relationships with Indians from all over India, Telugu’s are of the most close-knit and known to be ubertraditional. One of my Maharashtrian friends was like…oh boy, those Telugu boys and their mothers…they really have this love/hate but “we shall never be separated” dynamic. Of course let’s bear in mind that every family is different, but word on the street is that Telugu’s are really concerned about preserving their close knit group–thus they really like marriages to be kept in the community and so on. In my experience, R’s mom has lived in the US for 30 years but hasn’t budged in ANY, I repeat, ANY traditional type way—and really his dad too. His dad works in the US and is a little more sophisticated in this view on Americans, but he really is quite traditional at heart, too.
Anyway, about adopting Telugu ways for an American. I’m one of those Americans VERY willing to try the language, incorporate the food into daily life, raise the kids Hindu, and adopt many, many Indian things. So naturally I thought being down with his family would be more of a breeze—I would have more of a leg up than other Americans less willing/comfortable in doing such things. When I had expressed my willingness with my Punjabi friends, Gujurati friends, Maharashtrian friends, and New Delhi friends they always received it very warmly and enthusiastically. I think the Telugu’s are different (at least the first generation). I think one of the hardest things for me in crossing the cultural divide is R’s parents not thinking that my efforts are genuine and that they will “cheapen” or embarrass the community. This has been the toughest thing to swallow given how open and willing I genuinely am. Sigh. Of all the Indians to pick, I, of course, had to pick the toughest nuts to crack
…hehehe…levity, levity.
The first gen’s I don’t think view me as suspect—but I have no real way of knowing that, either.
Hang in their Travelgal. Sometimes progress is slow, but try not and think *too* much about their off base, and sometimes downright mean responses. It really isn’t personal–cognitively I know it’s just their lack of knowledge and fears—but I know how it can FEEL personal.
The three suggestions Gori gives are best. Just keep a cool head, give it time, and if your R is like my R, he’ll see how wonderful he has things will you and will put you and your relationship far above any of those misconceptions and harsh judgments.
6. May 2008 at 10:02 am
Sorry for all the typos…no time to edit
6. May 2008 at 12:44 pm
Travelgal, let me start by saying I found the letter very romantic, for some reason
Cute. Its good that he is willing to stick by you and also he is being very realistic(I always appreciate that in a person).
I really think it takes at least a week-1 month to know the “real” reaction of his family. After the shock sets in you will see how they are willing to handle it. It could go either way.
I dont know how long you have been together, but I do agree that time may show how commited you both are. If you can wait 6mo-1year to go ahead with marriage plans it could help a great deal. Personally, I wouldnt want to wait more than a year(assuming that you have been together for a long time now, and are definitely wanting to get married) because if they havent agreed by then, chances are they wont, or it could be too many years before they do… I think its a good idea to discuss what the plan of action will be in that case. Are you both prepared to go ahead without their blessings/acceptance?
I think slow acclimation is a good concept. Another thing which I hesitate to advise, but just may work, is to have your bf “sell” the idea of you to his parents. Play up the things which are important to them… ONLY if they are true of course! Things like: doesnt smoke, doesnt drink, dress modestly, parents are still married, your education level, siblings are married, how close you are with your family, if you want to raise kids as hindu, participate in traditions, visit india frequently, along with cooking and language that you mentioned. The point of this is to have them realize that you are not the stereotype of an American that is in the media.
Feel free to email me and I will share my personal story with you.
6. May 2008 at 3:29 pm
My $0.02 re telugu parents. I think the comment is by and large true. Frankly, much as one does not want to bring this into the picture, caste and class play a large role in Andhra Pradesh. I don’t think familial objections are only limited by the spouse being from a different country. See this newspaper report of a very famous film star’s daughter who got married despite his strenuous objection. It became a media promoted soap opera.
Btw, I’m not telugu.
6. May 2008 at 4:20 pm
Travelergal, I don’t have a lot to add since you’ve already been given great advice, but I just wanted to offer my support too. Your guy’s email is so impressive – he’s obviously cares very much for you since he’s willing to go to bat for you like that. It may take time and effort – but you have a good guy campaigning for you and that’s a good start. Hang in there!
7. May 2008 at 1:17 am
I am in the same boat as CT by saying you’ve received great advice. I think you have pulled a good rabbit out of the hat on this one. He’s totally taken you into consideration and gave you the respect you deserve by talking to his family about it. He’s made great steps in defending what he wants, but also asking you if you’re ready for the trials and tribulations to come. He has given you the ultimate compliment by asking you if you’re willing to join him in his battle uphill. Good luck!
7. May 2008 at 9:08 am
I agree with the others; he sounds like a good egg. Best of luck to you both.
7. May 2008 at 11:23 pm
I think a big difference between most Americans and Indians is that the latter don’t see marriages as a “chance” like the former. This doesn’t mean that all Indian marriages are perfect (many, like in the US, are just an unhappy cohabitation!), but it does mean that the two cultures have different views towards marriage.
Travelgirl, one issue that I think didn’t come up at all in the original email and the subsequent comments is about your family’s reaction to this relationship. I think to make your relationship with your SO work out well for the rest of your lives, your parents need to be on-board too. Indians seriously believe that a marriage is a relationship between two families, not just two individuals, so if your family is less committed to making your relationship work, problems are likely to come up in the future too.
I agree with GG that there is no substitute for learning about your SO’s culture. It’s important to understand that, according to Hinduism, after marriage the women becomes a part of her husband’s family. If you really want to get married to your SO and become a part of his family, you need to learn more about the culture, so you can understand what you are getting into.
Good Luck! I look forward to hearing how things work out for you.
8. May 2008 at 2:23 am
Hey – I’m a little late to the commenting here, but I just wanted to quickly throw in my best wishes and a couple of thoughts on the matter, too! I’m currently married to a South Indian man (who grew up in South India and whose parents have never left India), and I’d definitely say that even when parents are at first a little taken aback and concerned, things can definitely go well – I’ve now stayed with my in-laws a couple of different times, I email with them and talk on the phone with them, and I feel really good about our relationship. And although I perhaps had actually if anything an usually easy time of it, I did have two quick thoughts that might apply here -
First off, I totally agree with Galexie’s comment that the question of how to respond to a dating situation can be a really, really difficult one for Indian parents. I feel like it’s very common for Indian parents to be much more concerned about what’s going to happen when their kid announces he/she is “dating” an American, because both the idea of dating itself (a public association but with no actual long term commitment?!) and one of the most common fears a lot of Indian parents have about American culture (high divorce rate, less respect for family over the long haul) suddenly compound each other. But – I feel like it’s been overwhelmingly true for the people I’ve known that once a marriage is set (either a formal engagement or the marriage itself) things change dramatically. Given that much of the initial resistance often seems to come down to fear that the relationship will get far enough to affect their child’s chances for marriage to anyone else but will not actually last, I think it makes sense that once it is set, the parent’s fears very often turn very quickly into full support – after all, the goal is to have their child stay happily married! And, of course, I also agree with the comments about how much parents are often reassured once they meet you and realize that you’re nothing like the characters of baywatch – all of the sudden it’s much easier for them to imagine you as someone distinct from the images of the “average” american that they’ve been developing for years.
A second thought on this matter is that I think it can be useful to keep in mind that the social morays surrounding how much it’s acceptable to “comment on” a child’s relationship / marriage plans are often very different. So, in my family, there’s a strong sense of “this is a very personal decision and it’s up to you”, and while if pushed my parents would offer very tentative opinions on people I dated, for the most part the assumption was that they would only spontaneously offer opinions and certainly only ever offer strong opinions on my relationships if they thought there was something terribly wrong and they just couldn’t help but mention it (if they thought I was involved with someone who was abusive, for example).
Given this, I have some instinct to assume that if my SO’s family voices concerns about me, that, wow, they must be really deep-set and serious if they’re going to actually go so far as to bring them up and seem actually opposed to our relationship! But, I think that given the much stronger tendency in many Indian families to expect relationship/marriage decisions to involve input from multiple family members, this is really a very false assumption on my part – that, in fact, there’s actually perhaps even a level of honesty and directness in families’ discussions of people’s potential marriage choices that I am just not used to at all, and so tend to misinterpret some.
Ok – I’m afraid this comment may not be very coherent and is definitely rambling – I’ve just started working swing shift for a bit, so I’m pretty groggy not feeling so very coherent at the moment! But I did want to voice my support for you both – it really does sound like R’s thinking about things carefully and prepared to stick up for this whatever that ends up meaning, and like his family’s in a position where they can at least talk about it directly and honestly… which, frankly, I think sounds great. I think the advice you’ve already gotten on how to try to help promote a positive view of all of this is right on, and that there’s every indication it’s going to get you off to a reasonable start on good relations by the time an actual marriage happens. I wish you the best of luck, and I look forward to hearing how things go!
(and if I think of anything else that might be useful once I’ve regained my normal level of consciousness, I might add it =) )
14. May 2008 at 8:50 pm
Thank you guys soo much for all of your feedback. My boyfriend came home from India about a week ago which is why I haven’t been on here much–I have been spending some much needed time with him! I will write a more lengthy response tomorrow–but I am so thankful for all of the thoughts and ideas and advice people have given me about this! It has done wonders for me!
14. May 2008 at 11:43 pm
Great blog Gori Girl! And great comments everyone. I am an Indian male who is about to tell his family that he is in a serious and loving relationship with a white American woman. The types of issues that are raised here are things that I’ve constantly have to deal with, and it’s been such a lonely feeling to think that no one out there would really understand the circumstance. I am just glad to see that there are others who, although have particularities that are different in each situation, still have similar fundamental issues/concerns/problems that I am also dealing with.
Travelergal–it’s really cool that R would stick up for you. As an Indian man on the other side of the table, it’s a very tough mental step to face up to your family with something like this, especially with a VERY family-oriented Indian culture. I’ve jumped out of airplanes and bungee-ed off of buildings, but facing my family about this is by far the scariest thing that I’ve had to do. I’m doing it because I have faith in my SO and that our love is something that the universe has conspired to create. Although I don’t know your situation with R, I believe that the fact that he would so candidly face his parents (and candidly email you) shows, at least, that he cares deeply about you.
I look forward to keeping up with this blog and being a contributor/commentator every now and then. Thanks for making me feel not-so-alone.
30. May 2008 at 6:55 am
I just find it unfair that the woman has to integrate into the man’s family.
My family is traditional too. Why can’t the man put the same amount of effort above to integrate into MY customs, MY traditions and MY culture?
Why do I have to put his needs over mine? Why can’t there be a compromise?
This is what I find unfair. Fighting to assimilate into their culture when they should be happy we’re willing to assimilate into their culture, discard our desires and rights over our children for their preferences and beliefs.
Btw, I’m engaged to an Indian guy from Hyderabad and we’ve reached a compromise to not let our respective traditions supercede one another.
Family included.
30. May 2008 at 9:03 am
DY you bring up REALLY excellent points and things I have struggled with in the past/present with my Ahdhra guy, too.
I’m so glad you expressed the “Hey why can’t he bend to my ways! Why do I need to do all this for him?” sentiment—because I’ve thought about that many times.
If I may say, I think that a lot people gravitating to this blog are American women, dating/married to Indian guys, who seek to understand and feel comfortable with incorporating Indian ways/families into their lives. Overall I think this is a good thing (most people do here) but as Gori has cautioned before, we need to really think about our own personal comfort levels in doing so. As much as we want to try and understand and incorporate our guys’ culture(s) into our lives, we need to be true to ourselves, and know our own reasonable limits in doing so, too. And furthermore express those needs and have them respected. However, I have learned that when expressing needs, anger, or other emotions related to incorporating Indian ways into my life I really need to take into account: (1) learning the things about Indian culture that are not “personal” but I interpret them as such (2) having a lack of awareness or general knowledge about certain practices/rituals/traditions (3) gathering information first, taking it in, considering context, and then express needs/feelings. This process helps me because I have found given the starkly different modes of operation and frameworks inherent to Indian culture, many things could inflame a red-blooded, American individualist in a relationship with a more traditional guy. However, the process of information gathering, asking R to be a cultural interpreter (even when he’s clueless that he needs to be
), and then assessing my feelings, has definitely nipped a few of my reactionary approachs that got me no where in the relationship.
There are a couple of ways I have worked out why it’s necessary and important for me to bend to and figure out R’s personal/family Indian ways. My first point is that R already has a pretty good understanding of American culture. He grew up here and can already wrap his mind around American ways. I have not grown up around Indian culture and though I intellectually know a fair amount about it now…I’m still not sure if I will ever truly “know” some aspects of it. I think that’s where the reactionary stuff comes in–but if when I filter my feelings through some of the things I mentioned above–it helps quell those. In my opinion, I think American culture is much more straight forward than many aspects of Indian culture. For example, there is no where near the same expectations and “calls to duty” as I have expereinced upon investigating Indian culture. I can list tons of examples of this is anyone would like… but I think most of us get the idea…
Anyway, given the nature of the differing cultural beasts, in my experience, there is just a ton more to wrap my brain around and understand respective to R’s personal/family Indian culture. Sigh. Sometimes I get all, “This is a much harder deal for me than it is for you!” on R, but again, I don’t think the nature of the beasts can be helped.
(I know I’m tangenting now…please excuse me…writing helps me thing this out, too!
)
I was telling R how I don’t feel this duty to my family to appease them. We have an OK relationship but there really isn’t a lot of support—I’m not so sure how well my family would have my back if I really needed it and vice versa. I don’t feel I owe them much because they didn’t give me much. I’m pretty self made and on most days enjoy my self-madeness. Now R’s pretty self made too, and though he knows his parents are not perfect, someone ALWAYS has his back in his family/community beyond. When I got all huffy about the expectations of his family once, he reminded me that one doesn’t get the kind of support he’s had without personal sacrifice. I haven’t had to sacrifice much for my family, but I have not where near as much support as his family has given him and his sibling. And I think there’s a lot I can learn from that…
Again, tangent, but your comment DY really got me thinking. In my experience, given the complexities of R’s personal/family Indian culture–and the wealth of support and richness that can come from that–has required more of my “bending” I suppose. That doesn’t mean that R hasn’t had to bed to understand some of my things too (ooh! maybe a good post topic!!). However, overall, I tend to think the nature of Indian cultural beliefs does required a lot of bending, understanding, and learning for westerners–and that’s not always such a bad thing, actually. If your guy is not so much traditional (nor his family) I don’t think you’ll have to do as much mind-bending. But if your guy/his family is traditional, I really do think it’s going to require some creativity, learning, and understanding on the part of the pursuing westerner if you want the relationship to work.
You see if R’s personal/family Indian culture were to totally bend to mine, they would be stripped of so many things inherent to their culture, more importantly, dear to their hearts. And I don’t want that. As I said to R, I’d be perfectlly happy (and thrilled even) to elope…but he and I both know that his family would never forgive him (us) if we did that. So that would not be an option…but this is where sacrifice and obligation to those who have supported R (helping him become be the amazing man who has taught me so much about loyalty, support, and love) come in to play for me. And I’m pretty OK with that.
(Sorry DY…sort of wrote that for myself a little…mabye you can get something out of it though! If not, no worries!!)
30. May 2008 at 9:09 am
OK that’s it. I promise I will proof read all my posts before sending. Argh typos!
30. May 2008 at 9:15 am
DY: Oh and YES I think the guy should bend and seek to understand, incorpoarte YOUR traditional family stuff too!!!
I will say though from reading around … when you have two, fixed traditional sides there seems to be a lot more to work through. I’m not saying it CAN’T work…but it’s tough when you have two pretty set frameworks to work with, negotiate, and compromise.
As I stated, in my case, I don’t come from a fixed, traditional background/set of beliefs–I tend to be kind of chill & open most days with R’s Indian stuff. So, I think this has kind of made things easier in my mind… plus R’s awesome and really suportive of all my stuff when I ask, too.
30. May 2008 at 4:44 pm
Hmmm I am kind of in a rush, but I will try to formulate a coherent thought/reply
DY who is it that is putting such high expectations? Is it your husband or his family?
Unless he met you, while you are wearing a sari and prostrating to Lord Ganesha followed by an hour of meditation and then cooking up a nice batch of idli/vada/sambhar… then I dont really understand why men would expect their women to be drastically different than they were when they met/fell in love.
If its just his family, thats a different story.
I dont mean any offense by this, and dont take it this way but, is it possible that some of the weight of these expectations is placed by the woman herself? The reason I write that is I have literally seen women who think they have to achieve some unrealistic ideal of “compromising” or being someone they are not, where I cant see anyone else expecting it of them.
I never think that someone should become someone they arent. in order to get married. For one thing, that will never last long, or will end up in resentment.
I agree with NK, that it will help to learn about aspects of Indian culture and traditions, and try to see from their pov. I think any one should respect things which are important to another person, esp if it is a small thing to ask. But day to day life should be compromise between you and your husband, not you bending to everything he wants. I say this and I am not of the “uber independant, ME ME ME” type of person but I really dont think that means you should lose yourself.
I cant really claim to understand exactly where you are coming from. Maybe my case is very strange, in that I feel we havent hashed through any kind of cultural differences or clashes(and he was born/raised in India).
I guess alot of it is my knowledge and interest in India before I met him, and just my personality/belief system which I think fits well to Indian culture.
Well, sorry for getting off topic. I think any couple should take an interest in each others background, family, etc, even if they are both from the same culture. So I think he should try to understand from your side too.
I think the best advise is “dont sweat the small stuff”!
30. May 2008 at 8:54 pm
Hi DY – I’m typing this from an iphone, so this will be short. First off, I agree that the compromises should come from both sides – I’ve written about this in my post “why the ‘gori’ of gorigirl?”. Briefly, Aditya is quite Americanized, despite having first come to the US in college. So he has naturally made a lot of compromises by adapting to mainstream American culture. My goal is for our household & family a cool hybrid of his & hers traditions and culture.
However, when it comes to our extended families, we both bend a little more in recognition that neither set is as comfortable with “hybrid-ness”. So Aditya talks to my dad in that “man-to-man” American style, cause he knows that’s what my dad expects in a son-in-law,and I do similar types of things with his family. We’re both comfortable doing this, and don’t feel like we’re being hypocritical or anything like that. If others *aren’t* comfortable doing this, however, I think that’s perfectly acceptable. Every couple needs to find their own solution in the end.
30. May 2008 at 10:28 pm
I agree that every couple’s relationship has to involve comprise, but that’s going to mean different things for each couple. And I think it’s totally okay to say, “I have a culture that has value too and the traditions and customs that are important to me need to be acknowledged too”. I know I’ve said that a couple times when I felt things that were important to me were being overlooked or taken for granted. To me, that’s just part of communication as a couple.
I fell in love with Indian culture long before I met my fiancé and so my participation in his cultural practices and that of his family has never felt much like making sacrifices or discarding my desires – it’s actually been a means of achieving my desires and a way for me to be exactly who I am. I like what Mirchi says about her personality and belief system fitting well into Indian culture. That’s true of me as well. But I’ve also been lucky in that M’s parents and family are open-minded and easy-going, and they haven’t ever asked more of me than I was already happy to give.
DY, I’m glad you and your fiancé are discussing these issues and finding ways to compromise. I think one of the most important things in an intercultural relationship is to be on the same page and to know that you have each other’s support.
23. June 2008 at 3:40 pm
Edited by Gori Girl: This comment, and the ones following it, have been moved to a post of their own at Indian Parental Problems: When Your Intercultural or Interracial Relationship Is Suddenly an Issue. I’d appreciate it if everyone take the (excellent) conversation there. If you want your comment back here though, for any reason, just let me know!
24. June 2008 at 3:40 pm
My (beautiful and wonderful!
fiancee recommended I take a look at this post because I’m also a Sikh man marrying a Christian woman. While I think the “common” cultural background might give me some insight, I suspect individual personalities and local cultural and familial influences might be more at work here (ironically, I was just talking with my sisters about exactly what our “culture” means for us and what exactly it is for us).
But, more to the point, I definitely agree with the other posters that your future MIL is manipulative and passive/aggressive. However, I also agree that moving in together before marriage might have been a bit (or more than a bit) of a faux pas. I wonder if communication between your boyfriend and his family (and what he relates of that communication) is really as open and correct as it seems to be. E.g., when you say “His whole life he was taught that as long as he was with someone who loved and respected him that he was doing the right thing” but then “In high school he went to school dances with white girls and his mother cried and locked her self in her room for weeks”, there’s a disconnect there. What he’s communicating (he was taught that as long as he found someone good all was okay) is not what he was really experiencing as a child (i.e., it obviously *wasn’t* okay).
I’m not sure where this mis-communication happened but, even if it seems like his mom has changed on a dime, this doesn’t seem like new behaviour for her; even from that one incident you cited, she’s obviously got a history of these kinds of hysterics and drama. I wouldn’t expect her to change at all; hopefully, she will in time, but I would probably plan for it not changing, at least in the relative short term.
But I’d also examine my own interpretations; e.g., when you say she’s cold or condescending or didn’t hug you, are you sure you’re interpreting those actions correctly? E.g., was she a huge hugger and suddenly completely changed? Was she overly friendly and ebullient and is now completely different? Were other things going on in her own life? Also, you mention you’ve moved to a new town and have nothing else there; isn’t the same true for your boyfriend? I’m not trying to justify her stance because, based on just that one high school incident you described, she’s obviously prone to hysterics and potentially unstable. And I do think you’ve done a lot of very considerate things.
But I do sense a disconnect, as well. Perhaps your boyfriend isn’t understanding his mom very well but moving in together before marriage, the mixed messages (what he thought he was taught even in the face of incidents like the high school one), etc., lead me to believe it might be instructive to hear the other side of it, as well (if she’s willing to have that dialogue, of course). It’s a tough situation for you, no doubt, but I suspect there are other elements that might help you both reach some better resolution. Best of luck!
3. November 2008 at 12:03 pm
After nearly a year of dating, on Monday my Indian American boyfriend told his parents that he is very seriously dating a White American woman. Things hit bottom on Thursday with guilt and threats of ultimatums, much to his shock. While looking for comments/forums, I found this blog, which is a godsend. He was relieved that he’s not the only one to go through this, and I was relieved that it’s possible to become close as a family after all this crisis.
Things are looking up as of last night’s phone call with his mother (thanks in part, I believe, to his sister, who is currently living with their parents). Her big concerns are that I will divorce him and that I will stop eating vegetarian (I initially switched because we started discussing marriage and he realized that vegetarianism was very important to him in a marriage partner, but I’m starting to really get into it for myself, too). He said he used your bit about how she might not know much about me but she does know that the son she raised is choosing to be in a serious relationship with me, so I’m actually not just another White American.
Thank you for putting together this wealth of information on trying to be a gori-in-law.
) This past week has been one of the worst in my life, coming in second only to my mother’s death. Reading others’ stories and advice got me through.
3. November 2008 at 1:37 pm
@Sara: I’m so glad it’s starting to look up a bit! There really are a lot of people who get through it – even the ultimatums and threats. Another place to find a community of people who’ve been there (and many of whom are now happily married, with kids, comfortable in-law relations etc) is marriedtoindia.com. It’s a forum rather than a blog, but it’s a nice compliment to this site – definitely a resource to know about. Hang in there!
9. November 2008 at 8:17 pm
Hi, I am posting here from the perspective of the much maligned Indian parent
I will be non-pc and as honest as possible
Indian society is a tribal society
Castes are simply highly evolved tribes
In India, the caste connection is the social welfare safety net. School admissions, college admissions, jobs, contracts, weddings, unemployment insurance, old people homes are mostly arranged through the help of the caste
In elections, people mostly vote their caste
This tribalism has a downside, those who break the rules
( and these rules do change over time )
get ostracised / outcasted and lose access to the social welfare net, including parents, siblings and cousins
Often it feels like sensory deprivation
Indian immigrants to US, mostly have a leg back in India and take care not to be too blatant about alienating their caste
The actions of Indian immigrants in US, can blight the marraige prospects of their siblings, nephews and cousins back in India
The main issue is religion, race is secondary
and more particularly abrahamist religions with their concept of false other gods and their one true god
This will lead to the children of mixed unions, being eventually raised in abrahamist religions, and cause disruption, which is why the parents oppose it
There will be much less parental opposition
if the other party is willing to convert to the Indian religions
Non abrahamist religions such as shintoism, taoism , buddhism, etc are considered acceptable
There is a historical context for outcasting those who marry into abrahamist religions. These days it is limited to those who raise their mixed union kids in abrahamist religions
10. November 2008 at 2:02 am
@Shyamsunder: I really appreciated reading your comment! It’s always better to have more voices in the mix… especially earnest attempts to understand what’s going on.
Some of what you talked about I definitely recognize from what I’ve seen with my in-laws. The extent to which our marriage would affect my brother’s husband’s ability to marry was a big worry for me, although my husband and his family downplayed it.
The religion issue was actually less of a big deal for my in-laws. I wonder if some of this is a regional issue. My husband is from Kerala, where approximately 1/4 of the population is Christian; in fact, one of his uncles married a local Christian woman years ago. It is a religion his family is familiar and comfortable with. In fact, my mother in law expressed great relief that I had been raised Christian, as opposed to some strange cult-like religion, which she supposed was probably the alternative for an American.
I suppose my husband made it clear at the outset that I was not in any way opposed to Hinduism, either, and that this helped, as well.
I think the biggest thing for them has actually been the day-to-day issues. Since his family is actually in India (he just came to the US initially for schooling), his staying with me means that he lives incredibly far away. In addition, despite my best efforts, my ability to speak Malayalam is still terrible (I try so hard! And my in-laws just laugh and laugh at my attempts…). So, the extent to which we will be able to raise our children to speak Malayalam fluently is a significant issue. It’s an issue that my husband and I take very seriously, however, and I think his parents understand this.
Anyways – I think I’m starting to just ramble. Mostly, I just wanted to say I appreciated the comments, and to reflect on which I’d seen in my own experiences and how my experiences might differ. It also reminds me – I have an email from my father in law that I need to answer. I’d better go do that!
10. November 2008 at 8:39 pm
The historical context of Indians marrying foreigners
–
One of the earliest documented cases is when Seleucus Nikator, one of the generals of Alexander the Great, married off his daughter to the Indian emperor Chandragupta Maurya
–
The khmer civilization of cambodia was founded by when a migrant brahmin married the khmer princess
–
10% of the DNA of Bali is of Indian origin
–
The royal family of Thailand has married for several generations with Indian maharajas
–
Vasudara Raje Scindia, the Maharani of Gwalior visibly looks oriental, and she is of part Nepalese descent
–
But in all these cases, the foreigner was of a non-abrahamist religion
–
16. November 2008 at 10:47 am
A very non-pc look at race-caste-religion in the Indian context
In India, the preference order is
1. Upper caste
2. Backward caste
3. Xtian
4. Muslim
Most parents tell their kids
dont bring home a xtian or a muslim
Marrying a xtian will likely lead to outcasting
Marrying a muslim will likely lead to a honor-killing
There is a historical context behind this
Next, there is a color gradient in the castes
Upper castes tend to be lighter skinned
what this means is that a black xtian is considered on par with a muslim, whereas a white xtian is possibly acceptable if certain sticky points such as religion of grandchildren
However, even a white muslim is always unacceptable
In the US, this translates to the following acceptance heirarchy
The religion, color and education levels have an impact
1. Hindu
2. Oriental buddhist
3. Jewish ( because Judaism is a non-proselytising religion )
4. White Xtian
5. Oriental Xtian
6. Hispanic Xtian
7. Black
8. Muslim
Almost all Indian parents in the US, tell their kids
never bring home a Black or a Muslim
17. November 2008 at 9:56 pm
Welcome to the blog, Shyamsunder…
I appreciate your non-PC honesty, but I think you are oversimplifying India… a LOT
I think the ‘preference order’ varies greatly across geographies and demographics… i know for a fact that most parents will #1 want an in-law from the same culture – not just religion, but also region.
You are also assuming that “Indian parents” = “upper caste hindu”. That is clearly not the case in India… there’s a lot of muslims and christians, and i’m sure the ‘preference order’ for them would be quite different.
I don’t think it’s about a “tribal society” it’s just about the desire of human cultures to persist. Obviously, inter-cultural marriages challenge the continuation of tradition as it has existed [IMO for the better], and that is always a threat that would be resisted.
This phenomenon is all over the world. Most people marry within their preferred demographic all over the world. Not just India.
p.s. regulars: yes, GG & I are still alive… the blog’s fallen into a bit of a disrepair since GG started working full time, but things are on the mend
18. November 2008 at 10:16 am
Long-term update: my guy’s parents were not excited about us at first, but it’s been a year since we told them and they have come around. First there was crying and ultimatums and “your sister will never be able to get married” and “we’re moving back to India because of you.” We waited, and they realized my guy wasn’t going to back down. I cooked them dinner, we went to some events together, we spent time at his parents’ house. His mom started calling me beta. I’m picking up Gujarati (mostly just by lots of exposure) and they had an engagement ceremony for us this weekend. His aunts and uncles and cousins have pretty much adopted me. It just took a long time.
18. November 2008 at 11:55 am
Not *just* full time – full time plus two Ph.D-level economics courses (2/3 of a full load)!
19. November 2008 at 8:00 pm
@galaxie: Thanks for the update – and glad to hear of your happy ending (beginning? congrats on the engagement ceremony)!
@Aditya & GG: Glad to hear you’re ok & busy at exciting sounding things!
31. January 2009 at 6:58 pm
Traverlergal, questions for you;
1. Do you and your boyfriend plan to marry? I'm asking you this because if not, there was really no need for him to tell his parents about you OR he could've just said, “I'm dating her but we are not serious”.
Your boyfriend comes from the state of Bihar. I've been there. It's very traditional. Even other Indians refer to the state as “backwards”. I have seen young men from that state and surrounding states become OBSESSED with their first girlfriends. You see, when you are raised in an environment and culture where association with members of the opposite sex who are not related to you is limited and frowned upon, you often end up “falling in love” to the first woman who shows you a little attention.
This phenomena has happened to several of my non-Indian white friends when they have gone to India. They befriend local young men and those men “fall in love” and some become obsessed. Therefore, I understand what his family is talking about when they say, “infatuation”. Indian guys, because of their limited exposure to women, often times do not know what “love” is and they start declaring their “undying love” to a girl from a very early point. They are overcome with the flood of endorphins in their brain that they experience from receiving attention from a woman.
2. I understand their concern about divorce. I have more than a few friends who have married Indian men and divorced them. Some of these friends had even lived in India for considerable amount of time and adopted various aspects of the culture, especially the religiosity. However, being married to an Indian is an entirely different cricket match.
3. Does your boyfriend plan to move back to India some day and live there? Did you know that in India, more often than a wife lives with her in-laws and is expected to “serve” them, even if she has a job/career? Have you discussed with your boyfriend your future if you marry as in where you both will live? What if he expects you to live in India but what if upon going there you hate it? How would you feel about living in the same house as your in-laws?
You see, there are so many things to consider before getting seriously involved with an India guy. Even women who have immersed themselves in India culture for decades had problems when they married Indian men. Despite sharing core values like religion/spirituality, the divide between east and west on even a subconscious level was so vast that they had to split.
Also, gender roles are very defined in India. Despite the rise in career women, the general mentality regarding a woman and her freedom to move about as she pleases and allocate her time as she pleases, that's all still stuck in a medieval mindset.
These are VERY REAL concerns if you plan to marry a man from Bihar.
31. January 2009 at 8:45 pm
Pardesi, I don't know if Traverlergal checks back here or not, so I'm not sure if you'll get answers to your questions. You do raise some interesting points, though, and it's certainly very important for people in and relationship – intercultural or not – to discuss things like where the relationship is going, what the future entails, where you'd like to live, etc. Aditya and I have certainly discussed those things to death!
However, I do want to note that I know of many families in India where the women would not be expected to act in the manner you describe – including my in-laws' family. While it's important to recognize generalities that help us to understand different cultures & ideas, it's also important to recognize that things aren't nearly as simple as these caricatures we necessarily draw in our minds. You can read a bit more about my thoughts on this issue in the post Categories, Generalizations, and Stereotypes: Talking About Cultural Differences
31. January 2009 at 10:44 pm
Well, the thing is…. India is very different from the USA. Different right down to it's core.
And I have seen ALOT of women become “enamored” by Indian men who can come across as “so sweet and romantic” in their wooing and the women have some romanticized, idealized fantasy about “mystical India” and having an “Indian prince” as their “tall, dark and handsome lover”, and believe me, these guys do nothing to dissuade them from the illusion.
They envision an exotic wedding with rose petals and red saris and henna…blah, blah, blah…
you get the picture.
And no one explains to them what it REALLY means to be married to an Indian man, I mean to be married INTO an Indian man's family.
Desi guys are often EMBARRASSED to tell their girlfriends what it's really all about or they ASSUME because she is female that she will be an easy conformer.
So I'm just letting her know what she may be in for.
I wish when I had first moved to India I had someone guiding me on the ins and outs. I did not and I made alot of mistakes and also suffered psychologically for a long time.
1. February 2009 at 7:09 am
Hi Pardesi,
I am in a relationship with an Indian man, and trying to figure out what I am in for. When I read your comment, I thought I would ask if you wouldn't mind sharing more details about your story. If you don't feel confortable doing it on the blog, would you mind emailing me at:
dosagirl@gmail.com
Thanks a lot.
1. February 2009 at 10:09 am
Hi Dosa,
I've never been in a committed relationship with an Indian man but I have lived in India so I understand the whole family dynamic. Though every family is different, I will have to say that I have never seen a family that has veered off of the typical desi path in regards womens' roles.
There is a really strong bond between Indian mothers and their sons that, in my opinion, borders on the Freudian, on the Oedipal Complex. In general, Indian sons are spoiled rotten and it is expected, more by the mother in law than the son herself, that the son will be spoiled rotten by his wife as well.
If your relationship with your Indian man is getting serious, you need to sit down with him and clarify what his plans for the future are and where he plans to live and raise children if you both plan to have them.
1. February 2009 at 12:54 pm
Just wanted to second the comment about there being all sorts of families in India
My in-laws, like GoriGirl's, have been fantastic – although little things will always come up cross-culturally and between families (for example, “going for a run” is not a normal thing to do where my husband grew up, and his parents were initially very anxious about whether this was a safe thing for me to do while visiting), they are fundamentally kind, thoughtful and open-minded people who have very much not tried to force me into a role I am uncomfortable with.
In fact, one of the (many) things I appreciate about my husband is his self-sufficiency in all areas, including always doing his share (or lately, while I've been pregnant and very tired, way more than his share!) of housework and cooking etc – a trait he gives his mother credit much credit for, pointing out that from the time he was a child she insisted he not depend on or expect the women around him to take care of him.
In addition, during the few times there have been conflicts between his parents expectations and my own (which there will be, any time you stay with family for weeks at a time – heck, it happens when I visit my own family), my husband has been right there beside me making sure my needs are met and making it clear that while his family is very important to him (like mine is to me) our marriage is his priority.
So, while I want to echo GG in acknowledging that it can be useful to talk about generalities that can help us to understand the context for the specific examples of things we actually see in our own lives, I also want to emphasize strongly that such generalities should never push you to discount what you actually see in front of you in real life – if your partner, like mine, is kind, thoughtful, responsible and completely respectful of your own goals and desires and choices, it would be a terrible disservice to both him and to yourself to start distrusting who you know he is just because he's Indian!
1. February 2009 at 1:22 pm
Hi Pardesi,
Thanks for your reply.
In the cases you know that ended in divorce, who ended with the custody of the children? Did the women return to the US? What was the major cause for the divorce?
1. February 2009 at 1:51 pm
Living in India doesn't give you an automatic insight into how an Indian family works.
If you'd like to see an indian family that has “veered off” typical gender roles, please visit mine.
Please also don't assume to understand the nature of relationships between Indian parents/children. Given that you give credence to Oedipal Complex, I presume that you don't have even a cursory knowledge of the science of psychology.
How long did you live in India? I can guess that you lived briefly in a metro… I'm also curious to know how these tremendous insights into Indian family dynamics fell into your lap… without ever being part of any Indian family.
1. February 2009 at 2:25 pm
How long have I lived in India and where?
13 years in villages and small towns in the homes of Indian families.
Dosa, I'll be emailing you with my phone number.
1. February 2009 at 2:37 pm
… doing what?
please pardon my skepticism… i just cant imagine what a white girl would be doing in “homes of Indian families” in the villages and small towns…
also it seems a tad curious that you have never been in a relationship with an indian man, because on SM you claimed that you dated a Bengali dude described thus: “Big, dark, lotus-petal shaped eyes. Eyebrows arched like the bows of Cupid. Long, dark curly hair in classical Bengali fashion.” (http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/00379...)
1. February 2009 at 2:42 pm
Aditya, I guess that takes you out of the running for being “classically
Maybe you can get extra credit for being mistaken as a
Bengali”.
southern Italian/Greek while traveling through Italy?
1. February 2009 at 2:50 pm
Doing what? Religious stuff and volunteerism.
If you go back and read my comment here Adityaji, I did not say that I have never been in a relationship with an Indian man. Rather, I said that I have never been in a COMMITTED relationship with an Indian man.
Dosa, in the cases of divorce the non-Indian mothers have the children.
In the cases I know of where Indian women have married non-Indian men, there has been no divorce.
In my experience with these couples, it appears that there is more onus on the non-Indian partner to conform to desi culture and family life IF the non-Indian partner is a woman.
This has to do with the custom that another Indian male commenter posted elsewhere on this blog that in India culture, a bride is absorbed into the family she marries into.
I mean, didn't someone state on here that they are learning punjabi/hindi so that they will be able to communicate with their mother in law? Or am I getting goris and their blogs mixed up? Anyway, the point is, the daughter in law is learning a foreign language to communicate with her mother in law. A sweet gesture. But there was no mention of the mother in law learning English to communicate with her. This is what I'm talking about. Is it extreme? No. Nothing wrong at all with learning a language, it's great. But it's the automatic expectancy that it is the daughter in law's duty or responsibility to conform to the in-laws that irks me.
I mean, if the mother-in-laws husband and children know English, why doesn't she?
Life begins at 50 and mid-life is a great time to learn something new!
Maybe I'm just more of a feminist/individualist than anyone else here, I don't know.
1. February 2009 at 3:06 pm
“Maybe I'm just more of a feminist/individualist than anyone else here, I don't know.”
No – you're just more ego-centric.
1. February 2009 at 3:09 pm
You're mixing blogs up. My MIL knows some English, although she is often
worried about making mistakes. Actually, she knows a lot of English – she
has a masters in philosophy from an English-medium university. Also, she's
never said anything positive or negative about me learning Bengli or Hindi
as I recall – most of the pushing on that issue has come from Aditya, who
tires of being my translator & wants me to know Hindi so that a potential
move to India in the future would be more possible.
1. February 2009 at 3:18 pm
“Religious stuff and volunteerism.”
Would love some details here… There's not a lot of volunteer programs that has the volunteers living with families in villages… I mean – this sounds a lot like the Last Samurai… Tom Cruise redeems the Samurai tradition in one winter…
I would really appreciate if you would stop calling yourself a “Hindu” – you may follow Hindu principles, you may believe in Hinduism, but you cannot possibly convert to Hinduism without assimilating with a Hindu family…
1. February 2009 at 3:25 pm
Pardesi_gori – I think perhaps you don't realize how offensive some of your comments may be to some of the people reading this blog.
Aside from making sweeping generalizations that out of large numbers of Indian families there are likely to be no exceptions to your claim that women marrying into the families will be expected to be subservient (which is how I've interpreted your comments – if it's not how you meant them, I'd be happy to read a clarification, of course!), your comments I think read to some of us as if you're saying that the very relationships we're living now don't exist the way they think they do. Perhaps it's not how you mean it, but for me it's a little hard to feel like your comments mean anything other than you think that (a) I'm deluded and my husband and his family are actually completely different people than I believe they are, or (b) they're not actually Indian after all (which would sure be weird, since my in-laws have never even left India, and my husband hadn't until coming here for graduate school…).
Personally, I have been amazed at and very grateful for the lengths to which my in-laws have gone to be accommodating, whether it comes to meeting my needs when I visit, being sincere and welcoming and kind when my family flew over to meet them, working hard to get to know us as people… or even making it clear that although they have some sadness about how far away from them their son (and, soon, their first grandchild) are now living, they do not hold it against me and are happy that I have become a part of their family.
In this background, reading some of your comments feels to me like a very direct and unfair insult to people I love and respect.
Again, this may not be how you've intended your comments to come off. But, as I've felt the tone of this comment thread heat up a bit, I felt it was important to explain a bit about why some people may be reacting the way they are. One of the things I've really valued about this blog is the extent to which the community of readers have been able to talk very directly about difficult issues without things disintegrating into frustration and insults – I really hope we'll all be able to keep this up!
Sincerely,
sf
1. February 2009 at 6:39 pm
Gori Girl – the comment about the language and the saas was not directed at you. I think I specified the language in question was Punjabi, not Bangla/Hindi. What I met was that I thought the comment was made by someone somewhere on your blog. But I've come across a few different “gori” blogs in the last few days so now I see it was on another one, that you comment on also, and I also commented there.
SF-SG –
I'm sorry if I come off arrogant or over-critical or that I am voiding out your personal experience or invalidating your relationship. I am not.
I acknowledge that there may be hundreds, thousands and even MILLIONS of exceptions to what my experiences have been. Afterall, India is a land with over 1 billion people. But my experience has been much more extensive than any other non-Indian I've come across on the net and much more extensive than any other American Born Desi on the net.
I have been exposed to many different kinds of people in India from many different backgrounds. However, the gender thing is more or less the same across the board. I'm not saying that all in-laws have their bahus living with them – there are couples in India living separate from their folks, perhaps some even in the same towns but separate. However, in my experience, in general, gender roles are WAY MORE defined their than in the USA.
While no one likes to be accused of stereotyping, we do have to acknowledge PATTERNS in behaviour. Since being back in the U.S. I have surfed several desi related blogs and inter-cultural relationships blogs and the same things I am talking about here come up over and over and over and over again. Therefore we must acknowledge that there is a pattern.
I know in U.S. white folks are really careful about political correctness and all (white guilt, liberals, peace and love left over hippies, the multi-culti crowd, the thought police, it can get borderline Orwelian). That took me some getting used to after having lived in India for so long, but when there are patterns there are patterns, pc or not.
Aditya –
You may not think I am a Hindu but that's what my religion is classified as. And there is nothing within Hinduism that says one has to “assimilate with a Hindu family” in order to be Hindu. By “assimilate” do you mean marry a Hindu? Not quite sure what you mean.
At the same time, I am not attached to the label “Hindu”, and it is nowhere found within any of my shastras or granthas, so technically, I am not. However, just to categorized or “generalize” myself I used the word Hindu, so that people have a base of understanding about me. I am certainly not Abrahamic.
In our tradition we have a process called “diksha” (that would be “deekha in Bangla, sans the Sanskritized “sh” sound) and that is what converts one into the fold. It is specifically stated in our shastras and granthas that deekha is available to any human being from anywhere.
I was almost like a blank slate when I went to India, naive, innocent, open, wide-eyed, young, and multi-culti before that was actually even terminology. I definetly did not go there to “change” or “save” anyone. I went there to learn my religion and absorb myself in it.
More than that I am not willing to devulge anymore personal info about myself over the web.
If anyone wants I guess we could converse via email.
Regarding the sacred Bharatiya Ma-Beta sambandha, what can I say? Sudhir Kakar writes about this phenomena in his books that deal with relationships and sexuality in India. I recommend them to anyone desiring to place these things into context. Actually, I am not a big fan of Freud and I am not deeply read in his works, so I am not a “Freudian” at all. However, after many years of observing family dynamics and male/female dynamics in India, I came across, by chance, a few articles by Sudhir Kakar in Indian magazines and everything he wrote mirrored my own experiences and gave expression to what I had been thinking in my own mind, on my own, but was struggling to put it all in context. (Dosa, read Kakar).
Ironically Aditya, many Indian writers, intellectuals and heck, even just ordinary bahus articulate the very same things that I am articulating here, so no, I don't think I am off the mark at all.
Jokes, folklore and sayings about the proverbial Indian mother/son dynamic abound in India so there must be something to it, don't you think?
I mean, I can't make this stuff up.
And mind you, I did not go INTO India with any idea about any of this so no, I was not biased or even clued in when I first went there.
My experiences emerged over time and they were all very hands on and grass roots. I experienced alot for several years before I even began to read magazine articles or books about this stuff written by Indians.
1. February 2009 at 6:53 pm
I'd echo GG and sf_sg regarding the generalization thing, and just add a reminder that India is an incredibly huge place, with over a billion people and a lot of very different and diverse cultures. I think sometimes people (myself included) tend to forget that, and to assume when they're speaking about India that all people and places there are similar. Thus, while the families and villages that Pardesi says she lived in might have conformed to the more traditional gender role dynamics, not every family or locale in India will do so.
I'm also wondering, Pardesi, whether your stated purpose for living in India – “religious stuff and volunteerism” – might be contributing to your view of Indian families. That is, were you a missionary, targeting poorer areas that might be more traditional, culturally? If so, is it possible that your view of Indian families might be skewed, based on the subset of the population you were ministering to? I'm sure, despite having lived in India for 13 years, you can't possibly have seen or been exposed to every single aspect of Indian culture. After all, I've lived in the U.S. all my life, and there are still some areas of the country I've never seen and some aspects of American culture that I'm unfamiliar with. It's important, I think, to be willing to recognize where one's own views might be shaped by particular circumstances.
1. February 2009 at 7:04 pm
Sorry, Pardesi – I wrote and posted my comment before I had refreshed and saw your last response!
1. February 2009 at 7:19 pm
The main reason I try to never give advice beyond saying “this is
what worked for me” or “I've heard that this has been helpful to people in
situations similar to yours” is personal experiences have a selection
bias. There's no way you can get around that, so, frankly, it's really
really stupid for anyone to act like they have knowledge about how a
whole culture operates. You just. don't. know. enough. Ethnography has its
place, but not in predicting results or offering advice in individual cases.
1. February 2009 at 7:30 pm
Gori Girl, I disagree with your last comment, but we can “agree to disagree”, as they say.
1. February 2009 at 7:38 pm
You're free to disagree. But you'd be completely wrong to do so. And every social science agrees with my position, not yours.
1. February 2009 at 7:51 pm
Dosagirl – did you get my email?
Gori Girl – I guess all the books, newspapers, magazine articles I read in India are wrong.
I guess all the people I met in India and the lives they are leading and the traditions they are following are wrong as well.
?????
India has a culture and India has an ethos. Yes, there are hundreds upon hundreds of sub-cultures and sub-ethos in India, but there is a unifying thread woven through most, if not all of them, regardless of religious and linguistic differences.
Travel around India for a while and then get back to me!
1. February 2009 at 7:52 pm
Sudhir Kakar is a psychoanalyst – very much in the Freudian mould… just because he's Indian doesnt make him right
1. February 2009 at 7:55 pm
Right. I can see you don't understand what “ethnography” even means. Look it up, educate yourself a bit, and then we can talk.
1. February 2009 at 8:04 pm
“Gori Girl – I guess all the books, newspapers, magazine articles I read in India are wrong.
I guess all the people I met in India and the lives they are leading and the traditions they are following are wrong as well.”
So let me get this right… EVERY book, newspaper and magazine in India agrees with you?
AND EVERY person you met in India?
You know, in India there's always been a discourse on what it means to be an Indian… given the many religions, languages, traditions… I think your thoughts may be the unifying factor… this may be the moment of clarity that our nation has always needed…
1. February 2009 at 8:10 pm
Aditya –
Sigh. If you care to re-read my comment where I mentioned Kakar, I also mentioned my years of experiences with many, many, many people-families-couples-women-men. Kakar only put a context to my experiences in words. Years before I ever even heard of him or read him I had already had the experiences. Moreover I also mentioned books and magazine articles written by other Indians, many of them.
So it's not like I had just read a book by one Indian Freudian analyst and THEN AFTER that reading started having my experiences and tried to fit them into his analysis.
No. But whatever. Whatever I say will picked apart.
All just say that there are, in general, noticeable differences in gender dynamics between men and women in India and men and women in the place I happened to have been born and raised in.
Everyone I have talked to about this topic who has ever been to India – either whether they were born and raised there or whether they had moved there or are just a tourist, ALL of them say this, based on experience.
1. February 2009 at 8:19 pm
“No. But whatever. Whatever I say will picked apart.”
Yes. Because this is a discourse, and when you say things that are wrong, the people who are in discourse with you will point it out. Expect to be challenged here – I certainly enjoy being challenged. If you don't like it, you're welcome to swim off to someplace else.
<quote>”All just say that there are, in general, noticeable differences in gender dynamics between men and women in India and men and women in the place I happened to have been born and raised in.”</quote>
This is certainly not what you were saying to start with. This statement is so general that it applies to every single unit you can imagine – country, region, city, family, etc. Gender dynamics in different countries are different! Gender dynamics in different cities are different! Gender dynamics in different families are different! Amazing insight there.
1. February 2009 at 8:24 pm
Arey Ma! Ami ki korbo?
I give up!
LOL.
But my 13 years of personal experience with hundreds (thousands?) of people in India are not going to be changed all of a sudden because of one inter-cultural couple in USA.
1. February 2009 at 8:34 pm
It's not your personal experiences that are the problem – it's when you try
to generalize beyond them and up stereotyping a people – and then try to
offer advice on the basis of that stereotype – that you cross the line.
1. February 2009 at 8:37 pm
I'll see your 13 and raise you another four. And i'll throw in a few hundred Indian relatives, a few hundred years of Indian ancestry, and growing up in a Hindu Indian family in India. Let's talk when you've caught up.
As my (white) Modern Hinduism professor once said, “You cannot out-Indian Indians”.
I dont know everything there is to know about Hinduism or India – and neither do you.
1. February 2009 at 9:17 pm
I don't neccessarily agree with your professor's comment. I'd have to hear the whole context in which he said it, what issue he was addressing, etc.
But I am not trying to “out-Indian” anyone. I am not Indian nor do I want to be – ever.
I'm quite happy that I took birth in the USA and was raised here in the manner in which I was (give or take a few grievences).
I am quite happy that I get to live in India but also have the oppurtunity to leave too. That works for me.
Though that attitude runs contrary to the beliefs of most Indians in my religious sect who feel that I must've been Indian in my last life to have the “sukriti” that I have to live in India for so long and get so deeply involved in our particular ideology. For those that don't think I was Indian in my past life they sure think I will be in my next life and they even go so far as to “bless” me to take my next janam in Punya Bhumi. Of course they mean well but I am not particularly inclinced to contemplating a future birth in India. (To be fair the Bengalis in our sect also say the other Indians need to take birth in Bengal in their next life in order to really get Mahaprabhu's kripa, but that's another topic).
As far as “sterotypes” and “generalizations”, both Aditya and Mocroidh made two sweeping stereotypical assumptions about me;
1. Aditya assumed I had spent a limited amount of time in India and only in a metro.
2. Mocroidh assumed that I was “ministering” as a “missionary” to Indians.
So, I have also been at the receiving end of stereotypes.
I understand that few people have met someone like me so they would not really have a reference frame to work with.
Many of the goris connected in some way to India are bright eyed new agey yoga types who “just love” anything Indian that they have been exposed to because alot of their exposure is people like Deepak Chopra. They have gone to India for short periods with their yoga groups and stayed at ashrams with other white people (ok a few black ones too maybe). They are shielded from the real India and they leave with the idea that because India worships Goddesses like Kali Ma, Laxmi Devi, Saraswati, Radha, etc, that that veneration of the female somehow translates into the daily life of the aam admi and aam aurat.
Her view of India is largely an idealized, romanticized fantasy.
I am not one of those new agey type goris.
Nor am I one of those gori tourists who travelled alone in for a while and left a month earlier than scheduled because she got “eve teased” (desi-speak for “sexually harrassed”) one too many times and “just couldn't take it anymore”.
Nor am I a gori who's sole exposure to India comes through her boyfriend/husband.
So people often don't know what to make of me. I don't fit into any of their boxes.
Sometimes I myself don't even know what to make of my experiences or where I fit in, if anywhere, in this world.
Therefore I generally tend to excuse peoples' stereotypes, judgements and generalizations of me.
I will end saying this …..
Whatever all the thousands upon thousands of Indian women below the age of 40 who are writing thousands of blogs and newspapers articles about women's issues in India feel about their country and culture's gender dynamics, I feel the same way.
1. February 2009 at 9:21 pm
See – but they don't all feel the same way – that's the whole point.
1. February 2009 at 9:33 pm
Gori Girl, for goodness sake I never said ALL Indians everywhere feel the exact same way.
I am making orientating generalizations. That means, in order to orientate someone to something, you work within a general framework.
There are variations, but they fit into a larger orientating framework. Without orientating ourselves within frameworks none of us could survive in this world.
1. February 2009 at 9:41 pm
That may be what you are saying now – that's not what you were saying
earlier, either here, or on other blogs. A generalization that “India has
different gender dynamics from the US” doesn't get you to “Basically unless
a desi boyfriend's parents are dead or have already abandoned him for
whatever reason, I would not recommend anyone to enter into an intimate
relationship with a desi guy” – which is what you said on <a href=”
http://neokalypso.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/am-i...
blog.
1. February 2009 at 9:51 pm
I stand by what I said. I would not recommend it. I've seen too much.
But that's my opinion formed from my experiences.
Come to think of it, part of the reason for this could be religion. Although the desi/non-desi couples that I know share the same religious convictions and you think that would bring them closer, it actually has not. Religion did not trump culture in this case.
Now, take a couple to whom their religious involvement does not consume alot of their time and emotions, like say – a generic type of secular christian coupled with a generic type secular hindu, then it might work.
1. February 2009 at 11:03 pm
THE PERFECT INDIAN WIFE…?!?!
Seems like I'm not the only one stereotyping…
Even Gori Girl at one time seemed to have heard about the “Bharatiya Nari”
The comments by Nishu seem to indicate, according to him, that if you grow up in India, you come away with the concept and dream of a “PIW”, perfect Indian wife.
See what I mean when I say there are patterns to draw from?
I did not make this stuff up!
It goes back centuries, even millenia…
It's all there in the Puranas and Ithihasas……..
Alice, choose the red pill or the blue pill and see just how deep the rabbit hole goes.
1. February 2009 at 11:04 pm
Forgot the link; http://gorigirl.blogspot.com/2005/12/perfect-in...
Gorigirl, you can just add the link to the above post if you please.
2. February 2009 at 3:31 am
To: Pardesi Gori,
I have lived in the UK for 35 years and came to England as a very young child. I have also spent alot of time in india as I have family there.
Please, please dont lecture some of us who understand Western Culture and values far better than you do Indian values. I really dont want to judge, condemn and categorise all westerners in the same way you want Indians.
However, iwant to point out 2 things;
1. It seems to me you that regardless of how much time you have spent in India and your religious practices you are clearly viewing Indian society, culture and Indian Men through a very very narrow western viewpoint.
2. Your statement “In my experience with these couples, it appears that there is more onus on the non-Indian partner to conform to desi culture and family life IF the non-Indian partner is a woman” .
This really is absolute nonsense. After living for 35 years in the West and seeing many hundreds of Indians marry westerners I have to say that its completely the opposite. Indians (particularly Indian Women) will give up everything their parents taught them including being Vegetarian, religious practices, how they dress, how they speak, what names they give to their children…..Just to please their western partner. I also include my sister in this list.
Just so that you understand me correctly. I am not criticising anyone for their choice of partner or how they choose to live their lives.
My point is. You have still got a very narrow view of India and Indians. Please, please, dont ever go to India again, give up your religious practices, dont do Yoga, dont ever eat another Indian meal and dont talk to strange Indian people (particularly the men!). Save your soul!
regards
2. February 2009 at 3:42 am
Sorry , minor correction to point 2 – Actually, Indians that marry Brits in the UK often HAVE to give up everything (except the food!) because Brits are also culturally very arrogant and superior (even after they had an empire -explain that!).
2. February 2009 at 5:43 am
I can't edit your comments, as you have control over them; edit it yourself, if you wish.
2. February 2009 at 5:45 am
The blog you're referring to is a different blog from mine, and a different person. I didn't start blogging until March of last year. If you read further on that blog, it will become very clear that it's not the same person – I don't even know her.
2. February 2009 at 5:53 am
So let me get this straight. You only know of mixed couples where both partners share the same religious convictions – and yet earlier you thought you could draw conclusions on all possible intercultural relationships between an Indian and a westerner? That's not “seeing too much” – that's generalizing based on seeing a small segment of the possible combinations.
2. February 2009 at 6:00 am
Regarding point 2: I think “who gives up what” can go in both directions – and some couples, like myself & Aditya, don't feel like they're giving up much of anything. Aditya hasn't given up any of the things you list, and neither have I. The main point I think we can draw from this, though, is that none of us know what the percentages are one way or another, and until someone does a proper study, rather than just talking about personal experience, none of us will ever know. However, what we do know is that it's stupid to draw generalized conclusions on the basis of personal experience, since it's obvious that there are counter examples to these “all” statements.
2. February 2009 at 9:10 am
If your sister gave up being a vegetarian in order to marry a husband that tells me 2 things;
1. She was a “cultural vegetarian” rather than an “ethical vegetarian”. Her vegetarianism was not based on intentional ethics and she secretly probably also wanted to eat meat. On that topic I have met several desis who say, “it is too hard to maintain vegetarianism in the West.” That is just their excuse to indulge in tandoori chicken, quite frankly.
2. She is not a feminist. There is no way in hell I would compromise the ethics of my diet for a man, nor any of my other ethics. So some where along the line she has failed to develop a unique sense of self as a woman. Either that or like I said above, her vegetarianism was just not that important to her. Personally, I would never get intimately involved with a man who ate animal flesh because vegetarianism is a CORE VALUE to me, and I believe that couples must share core values in order to have a happy union.
The fact that you use your sister as an example just prooves my point. She is an Indian woman is she not? And despite choosing her marrying a non-desi, she is still CHANGING HERSELF FOR HER MAN. (that is, unless she really wanted to eat meat all along, as I suggested as a possibliity above).
I would also not get intimately involved with a man who did not share the same religion as me. I am feminist who feels very strongly about certain values in my life and no, I would never change those for a man.
I don't hate Indian men or women. Quite the contrary. Some of my most rewarding relationships have come from Indian men and women. However, I do not see India through rose colored glasses either. Just like I don't see the USA through rose colored glasses either. Every country and culture has it's weaknesses and strengths.
Anyway, basically my experiences with Indian men have been no different than the experiences of these Indian women. http://blog.blanknoise.org/
Ram, it's not a west vs. east thing. You don't need to go into colonial panic.
Alot of shifts are beginning to happen in India regarding women, their rights, their freedoms, etc.
It's actually an exciting time to be a woman in India and I'm kind of sorry I'm not there to breath in the excitement in the air and contribute to the cause. But I will be soon.
2. February 2009 at 10:08 am
Actually, my sister is still a vegetarian but others i know have chosen to make this change (and others) upon marrying a westerner….
From what I read actually, it's you that has made this discussion into an East Vs West with some of your remarks about ” If you live in America, then act like an American”. In which case, if you choose to go to India and live there for x years then SURELY act like an Indian (and especially when a Gori living in India chooses to marry one in India…..NO?).
I'm affraid, you have contradicted yourself on a few occasions and quite frankly, for someone that has such strong belief's about NOT marrying an Indian (which i think is not totally unreasonable advice by the way!), I really would urge you NOT to visit India again. I have often made this recommendation to Western Women actually over the last 20 years in England. Many Brits have a habit of Judging 1 billion people…… I mean, whats the point of you going to India when half the population in Indian Men? You cant escape them! The poverty? the smells? The cows etc….the list is endless. You may not be going there to look for a husband but i'm sure you find it difficult to hide your views on this subject and many others that you find intolerable about India and Indians in general. Perhaps it's a little insensitive to criticise Indians in their own country in this way? I have overheard Western Women in India on many occasions airing their views openly… I always think (but never say) they should leave and never come back. For their own sanity really! So, please dont go to India again! The country and Indian men dont need any more bad press in the West…… We get plenty already and some of it generated by other Indians. I noted your link by the way.
You will never change India but I do think the country is finally finding its way economically, socially, politically (albeit very slowly!).
When I first read your remarks I was little irritated because you seemed to have decided you know everything there is to know about this subject… And I dont believe that you do. You may have seen Western Women giving it all up for an indian man but believe I have seen as many if not more Indian Women doing the same for Western Men… and destroy their own true worth in doing so!
I am not gone post again as I may end up writing stuff i dont want to.
Thanks for the lively discussion.
2. February 2009 at 10:46 am
Ram, you suffer from PCDS – post colonial desi syndrome.
I have noticed that while Indian women vocalize their frustration with their experiences in India, Indian men in general try to shut them up and remain in denial about the very real experiences of their own women.
When I say it's not an east vs. west thing, I was implying that it is a male vs. female thing. It's a feminist issue, for sure. Indian men seem to be worried about the bad press. Indian women seem to want MORE press. They want the world to know what the gender issues are like in their country. We feminists tend to be vocal and global like that. Sometimes men don't like that. Oh well.
Regarding assimilation: I have assimilated in India, maybe too much. I do think that people who spend long times in other countries do need to assimilate as much as is possible and as much as does not go against their ethics. I have found that western tourists are very sensitive to the cultures of other nations. Before going anywhere they often get online and inquire “what is acceptable behaviour/clothing in such and such country?” They make the effort even before going to try and prepare themself in whatever way needed. I'm sure there are many desis who do this as well when they travel around the globe.
By assimilation I don't mean that one has to give up their religion or eating habits or any of that. And you know as well as I do that there are plenty of non-desi vegetarians in UK that if a vegetarian desi wants to marry a non-desi veggie, they can find one. All it takes is getting online these days and looking for veggetarians in UK. There are many groups/socieities for that. They can hang out with the new age/yoga crowd. There are always vegetarians, heck, even raw foodists in those groups.
Therefore you know as well as I do that any desi who was a vegetarian before and is now a carnivore, is one by CHOICE.
Desi youth often rebel against the culture of their parents because they don't like it. They want to live differently than they were raised. Vegetarianism and religion is not important to them because they did not CHOOSE it. Many of them are vegetarian or cultural or religious by default of being born into a family like that, not by personal choice. As adults we have the right to choose the way we want to live and these desis are choosing. If they were really committed to their culture or religion or being a vegetarian for ethical reasons (because they understand that animals suffer when slaughtered), then believe me, they would not change. They would seek out a partner that is as committed to these values that they are.
It's funny that you bring up the smells, the poverty and the COWS of India. Three things which I have not mentioned.
You are so convinced that I am some kind of “othering orientalist tourist” that you cannot see the forest for the trees. I did not mention the smells, the poverty or the COWS of India.
Cows are central and sacred to my religion and therefore I LOVE to see cows roaming India.
But maybe that is something you are embarrassed of?
My main issue in India is gender.
I could go into the details of my personal experiences there but I won't. Suffice it to say that despite everything else that I loved and relished about my time spent there, the gender issue and especially that of sexual harrassement is why I have not been back in 3 years.
But since I've had access to the internet and since I've become acqauinted with so many of the groups of Indian women that are tackling these issues in their own country, I have seen that I am not alone. Quite the contrary. Therefore I am again inspired to return to India and be a part of their first wave.
I missed the first wave of feminism in USA. But I can catch it in India.
Like I said before. It's an exciting time to be a woman in India right now.
They are rising. They are vocalizing. They are globalizing.
Does this piss some people off? Of course. But once awakened we can never go back to sleep.
2. February 2009 at 10:54 am
Wow, Pardesi, if that's what it means to be a feminist then I sure as hell don't want to be one! I would consider myself a feminist – and having attended a women's college here in the United States, believe me I am well versed in the whole “down with the patriarchy” thing – and yet I am realistic and mature enough to know that being in a relationship means having to change yourself in a number of ways and possibly make accommodations to your partner. It goes both ways, you know – men have to change themselves for women, and women for men. And “changing yourself for your man” can actually be a positive thing! Now, I agree that neither person should be forced to surrender their core values – but in that case, it's not a truly loving relationship where each partner is accepted and loved for who they are. And in that case, I might urge a person involved in such a relationship to take a good look at it and decide whether it works for them – but such advice would have to be offered on a case-by-case basis. I would also keep in mind that you can never really know the true dynamics of a relationship simply by observing it from the outside. You may know a couple very well – but you don't know what they are like together when you are not around, you don't know their full history. So passing judgment upon other people's relationships is really impossible.
I'm willing to assume that you probably don't want to offend most of the regular women who read this blog by asserting that they're all simpering idiots who have compromised themselves as strong, independent feminist women by entering into a relationship with an Indian man – but I'm afraid that might be what you've done.
2. February 2009 at 11:55 am
MOCROIDH said:
“Now, I agree that neither person should be forced to surrender their core values”
Pardesi Gori replies:
That's all I'm talking about too. Core values. That's why I stated that it's important that a couple have core values in common.
For many people diet is not an issue. For me it is. My diet is integral to my ethics and spiritual beliefs. The reason I would only want to be with someone who is of the same religion as me is because I am deeply invovled in it in a continuous daily sort of way. I would not try to force a man to convert to my religion, that is wrong.
Therefore even though I am open to being friends with anybody, I would limit my dating and mating to men who share the same core values as me.
Of course on other minor things there is always compromise between couples. That's the dynamic of relationships. Give and take, from both sides.
No. My intention is not too offend anybody and I regret if anyone is offended.
2. February 2009 at 12:24 pm
@ PG. Please stop insulting other readers of the blog. I think we've all had enough for your hate-mongering non-sense.
You've repeatedly made sweeping statements that are demonstratively false.
You've repeatedly contradicted yourself.
You are not a feminist. You're just a pretentious ass with a major ego problem.
And given the depth of your hatred and dislike for Indians and their culture, you're neither invited nor welcome in India. In all these posts you've written – here, on NK's blog and on SM, i've never ever read one positive thing you've said about India, it's people, or it's culture.
Sooo yeah.
2. February 2009 at 12:25 pm
“My intention is not too offend anybody and I regret if anyone is offended.”
really? you go on blogs about intercultural marriage and spew all sorts of non-sense about how its a hogwash and how indian men and their families are ALWAYS out to oppress white women…
and you dont expect to offend anyone?
2. February 2009 at 12:46 pm
Actually Adiyta, quite the contrary. I am being missed and invited back to India weekly by the people that know me there. I am holding off on going for a while more.
I do not say all inter-cultural relationships are hogwash. There are issues that need to be addressed, that is all. And I say this from experience. Both my own and my own friends who's marriages I have seen fall apart.
Both Indian men in India and non-Indian women who go though have stereotyped “fantasies” about each other. After the initial endorphins wear off (romance, “falling in love”, the oxytocin rush of an orgasm) what is left in a relationship is friendship and respect based on shared core values.
People need to be mature and realize this. That's my point.
2. February 2009 at 1:06 pm
Your point changes each time we raise an objection. It's very peculiar..
2. February 2009 at 1:49 pm
Maybe I'm not articulating correctly. Or maybe you are not comprehending correctly.
Most likely a little bit of both.
I'll summarize.
1.The desi/non-desi marriages I have seen that have lasted beyond a few years are when the wife is desi and the husband is non-desi.
2. have some non-desi female friends who divorced their desi husbands due to not being on the same page culturally and psychically, especially with regards what it means to be married and what it means to be a wife, despite the couple being of the same religion.
3. I love India and my Indian friends there, but I do have major issues with the gender gap in that country and with how I was treated there as a woman and with how I see my friends and local female neighbors being treated. Those women also have issues with their place in Indian society
4. India is currently undergoing the beginnings of a first wave of a feminist movement and therefore it is an exciting time to be a woman in India and I plan on returning to see what I can do within my own sphere (religion).
5. Non-desi women who go to India often have an over-idealized, over-spiritualized and over-romanticized view of the place and it's culture(s). Some of them have put India so high on a pedastal that they are SHOCKED at the very first ass pinch or boob grab they get after coming out of Indira Gandhi International. Whenever any of my sisters travel to India I warn them about the sexual harrassement that is pervasive in the areas that we inhabit and give them tips on how to fight back.
6. We come from a religion that glorifies Bharat-varsha as the source of all our avatars and saints and the source of all our spiritual inspiration – so it is a MAJOR SHOCK on the system when one is exposed to hostile elements on a regular basis in such a wonderful place. (I suffered from depression in India over this simple fact of life. Since being in USA I have healed myself but still am not quite psychology ready to return just yet. I need to work on a few more things in order to re-prepare myself for the return so that I will be able to be functional and happy in that environment again and also be able to offer help to the women around me).
7. I know not all inter-cultural relationships are doomed to failure. However, most of the ones that I have seen failed – all for the same reasons.
8. I have friends from many different countries/cultures/religions and am open to making more. However, anything more than friends would have to be someone of the same religions with the same core values.
9. I'm single and lovin' it, baby.
10. I don't hate anyone.
2. February 2009 at 2:03 pm
Like I said, that's what you're saying now… You can't “articulate” your
previous comments away.
2. February 2009 at 2:07 pm
I just reviewed my previous comments and see nothing as non-congruent to what I wrote in my last comment.
Can you specify?
2. February 2009 at 2:31 pm
1.The desi/non-desi marriages I have seen that have lasted beyond a few years are when the wife is desi and the husband is non-desi.
I know at least two counter examples to this where I live. One of them celebrated their 25th anniversary and the other one celebrated their 10th. I am yet to encounter intercultural marriage where a desi is involved. This is not to say that they don't. I have read about failed ones. But to suggest that somehow my marriage is doomed because theirs have… well defies any sort of logic that I am familiar with.
2. have some non-desi female friends who divorced their desi husbands due to not being on the same page culturally and psychically, especially with regards what it means to be married and what it means to be a wife, despite the couple being of the same religion.
You can remove the desi adjective out of that sentence and it will still hold. So really nothing new there.
3. I love India and my Indian friends there, but I do have major issues with the gender gap in that country and with how I was treated there as a woman and with how I see my friends and local female neighbors being treated. Those women also have issues with their place in Indian society
I will gladly agree with this statement.
4. India is currently undergoing the beginnings of a first wave of a feminist movement and therefore it is an exciting time to be a woman in India and I plan on returning to see what I can do within my own sphere (religion).
The first wave of feminist movement was a long long time ago. My grandmother and my mother and many others in my family consider themselves feminists and have worked hard, gone on strike and some have even gotten arrested in the process. But none of them will possibly claim to be the first wave of feminism in India. It is a work in progress, just like in many other countries (Including the USA). Suggesting that the modern day Indian feminist movement is first of its kind is akin to suggesting that Hillary Clinton is somehow the first woman to break the barriers of gender imbalance at the highest level of office in the US. Did she achieve heck of a lot that contributed the cause of women in power? Yes and probably more than most women of her generation. But she is certainly not the first one to do so. Neither are any of the women on blanknoise or other similar organisations.
For instance see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_cloth_revolt.
5. Non-desi women who go to India often have an over-idealized, over-spiritualized and over-romanticized view of the place and it's culture(s). Some of them have put India so high on a pedastal that they are SHOCKED at the very first ass pinch or boob grab they get after coming out of Indira Gandhi International. Whenever any of my sisters travel to India I warn them about the sexual harrassement that is pervasive in the areas that we inhabit and give them tips on how to fight back.
Yes. Most of us are aware that there are westerners who come to India to find X,Y or Z and being heartbroken later on. Can't blame Indians for that, now can we? If I had read trashy novels and other form of pulp fiction that is generated in this country and expected a Baywatch type society to greet me when I came here, boy would I have been in for a shock.
6. We come from a religion that glorifies Bharat-varsha as the source of all our avatars and saints and the source of all our spiritual inspiration – so it is a MAJOR SHOCK on the system when one is exposed to hostile elements on a regular basis in such a wonderful place. (I suffered from depression in India over this simple fact of life. Since being in USA I have healed myself but still am not quite psychology ready to return just yet. I need to work on a few more things in order to re-prepare myself for the return so that I will be able to be functional and happy in that environment again and also be able to offer help to the women around me).
Where in the world did you get the idea of glorifying Bharat- varsha. Isn't that a political tool that RSS and such uses?
7. I know not all inter-cultural relationships are doomed to failure. However, most of the ones that I have seen failed – all for the same reasons.
Most ones I have seen have succeeded. Selection bias? May be?
10. I don't hate anyone.
Your comments certainly don't give that impression.
2. February 2009 at 2:33 pm
Your points now are “toned down” from what you were saying earlier, like:
“But it's the automatic expectancy that it is the daughter in law's duty or responsibility to conform to the in-laws that irks me.” – false stereotype
“But my experience has been much more extensive than any other non-Indian I've come across on the net and much more extensive than any other American Born Desi on the net.” – second part is blatantly false.
“I have been exposed to many different kinds of people in India from many different backgrounds.” – again, blatantly false unless you define “different' in an extremely narrow way. Otherwise you couldn't in good conscious make the next statement, which is also false: “However, the gender thing is more or less the same across the board.”
“Sudhir Kakar writes about this phenomena in his books that deal with relationships and sexuality in India. I recommend them to anyone desiring to place these things into context.” – shows your lack of knowledge of even the basics of psychology that anyone who'd taken (and understood) Psych 101 would know. This alone should make it clear that your opinion on anything psychological is pretty questionable.
“Gori Girl, I disagree with your last comment, but we can “agree to disagree”, as they say.” – since this is regarding the selection bias comment I made, I can only guess that you have little to no knowledge of how accurate social science is conducted, and why it's inappropriate to make the sort of generalizations you make.
“Gori Girl – I guess all the books, newspapers, magazine articles I read in India are wrong.” – one such generalization, which is blatently false, unless you had someone pre-read everything first, to make sure you didn't come across any dissenting opinions to challenge yourworldview.
“I don't necessarily agree with your professor's comment” – I'd love to see how you – or any other non-Indian – can be more Indian than an Indian. Really. lol.
“As far as “sterotypes” and “generalizations”, both Aditya and Mocroidh made two sweeping stereotypical assumptions about me” Clearly, you don't understand the meaning of the word “stereotype”. Which is actually not surprising, come to think of it…
Arg, I could keep going, since I haven't even finished with this thread, and could also branch out into the other blogs you've commented on – weren't you banned from Sepia Mutiny multiple times? – but there's really no point. I do hope if anyone comes across this discussion in the future, they'll quickly realize exactly how much your generalizations are worth.
2. February 2009 at 2:38 pm
To be fair on number 1, all she's doing is commenting on her own experiences… which leads up back to selection bias. But, from what I've deduced in our previous interactions, I don't think Pardesi understands what selection bias is.
2. February 2009 at 3:00 pm
Again, my experiences were my experiences. You are trying to tell me that I have not had the experiences that I had! I have mixed and mingled with people of a wide variety of caste-class-regional and religious backgrounds in India and the gender issues amongst all of them were indeed the same, to various levels.
Gori Girl, when you go to India you will SEE what I mean.
Until then you can check out the many HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of websites and blogs on the Internet written by INDIAN WOMEN who say the exact same things I say about the gender dynamics in India.
Again, I can't make this stuff up!
Could these Indian women be wrong? Are they not experiencing what they are experiecing as well?
Anyway, this has helped me clarify my stance. I have been asked to write for a few sites and my exchanges here have given more fodder.
However, I want to leave on a light note so I will leave you with a joke that has been making the rounds of the www.
Remember, it's a JOKE. Comic relief. And it was written by an Indian (google it if you don't believe me.)
10 Reasons to marry an Indian Man
10. They come in a family pack. You get a mother, a father, a few sisters-in-law, half dozen cousins, and countless relatives for free.
9. They would never leave you. They get fat and lazy too fast and no woman will ever be interested in them.
8. You will never get tired of hubby improvement projects. They come with countless imperfections and guaranteed to be really slow learners.
7. Despite their crude exterior and rude attitude, they are docile at heart. They are well trained by their mother to follow orders from woman of the house. You are in control.
6. They would be grateful all their lives; all other 37 girls they interviewed turned them down.
5. They will be available all the time. They do not have any friends or social life or passion to keep them busy.
4. You never have to worry about their past girlfriends: most likely they never had one, or in the rare case they had a girlfriend, she is too busy erasing the memory.
3. You will earn the sympathy of everyone, even your worst enemy.
2. They will stop harassing you once you marry them.
And number one reason for marrying an Indian man
1. For the rest of your life whenever you say “I could have done better,” you will be right.
2. February 2009 at 3:10 pm
I'm not saying that your experiences didn't happen – just that the
conclusions you draw from them are wrong. Which they are. And I've been to
India.
Nice for you to not actually address any of my points.
Do let me know
when you start blogging – I enjoy laughing.
2. February 2009 at 3:36 pm
so asked on NK's blog, and i'll ask here… when you say you converted into a Vaisnav tradition, are you referring to ISKCON?
2. February 2009 at 3:36 pm
For Sooraj-
“Where in the world did you get the idea of glorifying Bharat- varsha. Isn't that a political tool that RSS and such uses?”
From commentaries on my religious texts. Which are non-political. Our avatars have incarnated in India and there is a dham for each one of them. Moreover our saints, gurus and acharyas have taken birth there and their birth places are our tirthas. So in their naivety some people expect India to be a very peaceful, loving, egalitarian and spiritually focused place.
I can't tell you how many yoga enthusiasts I have met in the West who assume these things about India due to their spiritual impression of the place through books that they are reading and what-not. They are shocked to learned that Goddess worship does not translate into gender balance in the day to day life of the aam admi and aam aurat of India.
Contrary to getting “bad press” like Ram objects to, these people only get “good press” about India. To be honest, they need to be armed with a little “bad press” too in order to prepare themselves for the onslaught of what it means to be a woman in India.
Gori Girl – I'm not addressing each point one by one because all I have to say is that I still stand behind each and every single one that I wrote.
I know what I experienced. Not once, not twice, not a hundred times, but over and over and over again, consistently.
You want to see my blog? I've had one for a few months now but have made only one entry. And it's not about these topics.
These topics are actually distasteful for me because they trigger alot of painful memories. I would rather write about positive things. Things that make me happy.
However, a few feminist blogs have asked me to write for them so I'm considering it.
I just don't want to get too distracted from my main occupation which is writing about good stuff.
2. February 2009 at 3:39 pm
hahaha. amen.
2. February 2009 at 3:43 pm
… this is your comic relief?
This may be the most blatantly racist and sexist thing you've written.
2. February 2009 at 3:50 pm
Aditya, chill out. Don't shoot the messenger!
That list was written by an India, possibly a man, in a light-hearted fashion.
I shared it with many of my Indian friends and they laughed their pachas off.
I answered you over at the other blog…… but I'll state it here as well. I have nothing to do with ISKCON.
2. February 2009 at 3:53 pm
Gori, I am unable for some reason to edit/delete my own comments.
You may edit out that joke if you like. Several Indian women I know find it hilarious.
2. February 2009 at 4:01 pm
It's really very simple. You click on your name in a post. That takes you to the Disqus site. You then claim your profile – that sends a confirmation email to the email you're using in these posts. You click on the confirmation link, and then login, which will allow you to have control over all your comments on blogs using the Disqus software. I'll give you another 15 minutes before I delete the comment.
2. February 2009 at 4:02 pm
Have you ever heard the term “in poor taste”?
2. February 2009 at 4:08 pm
It says unclaimed profile when I click on my name.
2. February 2009 at 4:10 pm
That's why you… claim it.
2. February 2009 at 4:30 pm
I'm having registering problems now.
2. February 2009 at 4:34 pm
Quit switching what email you use to make comments. And try going here:
http://disqus.com/signup/?next=/add/
2. February 2009 at 4:45 pm
OK, after I FINALLY figured it all out I see you've removed it!
LOL.
Anyway, Gori, are you saying you don't like Kakar's books?
2. February 2009 at 4:50 pm
It's back. Please edit.
I've never read Kakar. However, if he talks about Freudian theories as if they're actually legitimate, I'd say that his academic credit in my eyes is about at the same level as Marxists. Which is to say, pretty damn low.
2. February 2009 at 5:07 pm
This disqus thing is real weird. Just to log in I have to post a comment?
2. February 2009 at 5:11 pm
Gori, I'm frustrated. I just went up to that post and clicked on “reblog” (edit option was not available) and I waited but was not directed.
If you have already edited it out, why did you return it? That doesn't make sense.
Had enough of internet glitches for the day. I'm going to go eat.
2. February 2009 at 5:15 pm
The problem is that you're posting under two different emails, and thus the
system is, reasonably enough, registering you as two different people. I'm
sorry you're having such trouble understanding a system that is very simple
according to everyone else I've talked to who has used it.
2. February 2009 at 5:17 pm
If you continue to have problems, please email me, as I don't want to
clutter up the comments section with tech help.
2. February 2009 at 11:21 pm
Hey, I thought you all might be interested in watching this as it kind of ties into the discussion going on here.
I was watching the videos of the Mangalore pub attack by the “sri rama sena”, which has invoked outrage across India and in doing so came across an 8 part series on youtube
MANGALORE, MORALITY AND CULTURE featured on CNN IBN.
In some parts the panelists are all shouting at the same time and I felt kind of sorry for the two elderly panelists as the anchor woman never seemed to let them get their points across suffieciently, but they are covering the same topics as here;
east vs west
men vs women
the old vs the new
tradition vs modernity
culture vs multi culti
globalization and westernization are given a go.
Find part 1 of 8 and the rest at this link;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT8j-BHsQKc&feat...
2. February 2009 at 11:56 pm
Wrong link!
For the above mentioned click below. Part 1 of an 8 part series featured on YOUTUBE;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyviWkOoFOU&feat...
3. February 2009 at 1:33 am
Hello Gori!
I'm just wondering why you took the joke down and then put it back up again and asked me to take it back down????
Seemed kind of odd.
Goodnight.
PG
3. February 2009 at 8:46 am
Selection bias or no, I'm going with Sooraj on #1 and #7. We know a couple who just celebrated 35 years. Wife is Jewish, husband is Hindu from my husband's community. And a cousin just married the son of a white lady and a Telegu man; I think they had been married for about 30 years as well. In fact, the only couple in G's family to ever get divorced was a tradtional arranged marriage, and both were Hindu and from the same community.
I also agree with Sooraj on #4. G's grandmother was also a big feminist back in the day.
For #5 – I just went through Indira Gandhi International, and at no time did anyone grab at me. Of course, I was with my husband and BIL the whole time, but there were a few times we got separated in the crowd. Actually, I had prepared myself for some sexual harrassment, but it didn't happen. There was a lot less staring than I expected, too.
BTW, Pardesi is one of the most amusing trolls I've seen in quite awhile.
3. February 2009 at 8:56 am
Oh good – Aditya was getting a bit PO'ed, and I was worried she was annoying
everyone but me. But if you're finding her amusing too…
3. February 2009 at 9:54 am
I'm amused by this comment posted by “Gori Girl” on Bahu Bootcamp here;
http://bahubootcamp.blogspot.com/2008/07/pomp-c...
'One thing you should realize, though, is that Hinduism, as practiced by most Hindus, is a sexist religion, similar in nature to Catholicism or the Latter-Day Saints. Now, I think you can be a Hindu without being sexist, but most Indians are not, as modern India also currently does not have what we would recognize as fair gender practices.”
Seems like you and I both do some generalizing there, Gori. What with the term “most Indians” that you are using and all.
By the way, what you wrote was correct in my experience and I agree with it whole heartedly, but imagine if I had written the same thing here? You and your swami would be protesting that it is not true and that I am stereotyping, generalizing and was just plain wrong, if not arrogant.
Oh the tangled web we weave……………….
I'm expecting you to delete this as well because I know that people do not like to be shown to be hypocrites. It embarrasses us.
I am curious though, in light of all of the recent exchanges we've had above on your site, how do you feel about the comment you wrote on bahu bootcamp back in August?
PS: you asked me to email you regarding tech stuff but you neither provided an email address in the email nor could I find an email address for you here. therefore i just hit reply and my tech/registration messages came here.
3. February 2009 at 10:22 am
This isn't a generalization – this is a fact. Hinduism, as practiced by many
or most Hindus, has sexist traits, like the fact that women are given
away by their parents in marriage – just like in most forms of Christianity.
And India does not have what I would recognize as fair gender practices -
and, of course, neither does the US. No country does, but most countries
have inequalities in different ways.
A stereotype would be saying “all Indians are sexist” or “all Indian MILs
make their DILs wear traditional dress” or something like that. If you
actually understood what “stereotype” or “unfair generalization” meant, then
you'd understand the difference.
You can contactt me through that niffty page called “Got a Question?” up at
the top.
3. February 2009 at 10:42 am
Stereotypes are based on generaliziations.
But like you and others have pointed out to me, you don't know MOST Indians Gori, so how can you make a sweeping generalization such as, “you can be Hindu without being sexist, but MOST Indians are not”.
Touche!
3. February 2009 at 10:55 am
She's bordering on obnoxious, but at this point is still amusing (at least I think so).
3. February 2009 at 11:00 am
Because, uh, I actually read academic articles and books that have made
scientific study of India? Rather than just relying on my personal
experiences? And stereotypes are actually a type of generalization – a bad
one. I've written a post about this topic before, and I've linked to it in
this thread. Try reading it.
3. February 2009 at 11:00 am
“I'm expecting you to delete this as well because I know that people do not like to be shown to be hypocrites.”
Inspite of all the non-sense you have written so far, the only COMMENT that has been deleted was because of the racist and sexist joke it contained, and GG did give you ample opportunity to keep the comment part as long as you removed the offensive joke.
3. February 2009 at 11:09 am
I also deleted the tech talk comments, because they really don't
belong here, in contrast to this main thread which only sorta doesn't belong
here.
3. February 2009 at 11:20 am
Well, of course you've READ about India. When you don't live there books and other media would be your only source of information, now wouldn't they? Aside from your hubby that is.
I'm just surprised that you would rely on academia, which often has biases and some Hindu groups are calling them out on it.
Anyway, your reading and my experiences match up.
I had several years of personal experience in India before I started reading (non-religious) books about India, like Kakar's and others. For the most part, what was described and analyzed in those books matched up pretty well with my experiences and put everything into a larger a context of understanding for me.
So at the end of the day, you and I seem to be in agreement on Indian gender issues.
3. February 2009 at 11:45 am
Believe what you will.
3. February 2009 at 12:23 pm
Oh my god!
There really are Aliens living amongst us!
3. February 2009 at 1:57 pm
Ram, are you by any chance part of the Sri Rama Sena that is getting alot of publicity lately?
(joke, joke)
Anyway Gori, Sooraj, Aditya and others. To be fair, after thinking about it, I will say this;
Most of the desi/non-desi marriages that I have had exposure to were unlike the marriages I am reading about on this blog and others in the following ways'
1. The marriages here and on alot of blogs are unions between working professionals with University degrees for the most part. The unions that I have had personal exposure to were between women who had dedicated most of their lives to a certain Indic religion and had married Indian men from village/small town backgrounds who were either also directly involved in that religion or indirectly connected. Neither were working professionals with high degrees. In most (maybe all) cases the women had “married down” in terms of experience, exposure, awareness and intellect. This does not appear to be the case in the desi/non-desi marriages I am reading about on the net. It appears that couples like Gori and Aditya as well as others in the blogosphere are “equals” and neither party “married down”.
2. It appears that in the blogosphere the desi husbands and boyfriends are already well settled in the West and are not village/small town Rajus and Rinkus looking for a green card.
So I would say these two factors make a big difference in the outcome and I wish these couples are the luck and love in the world.
Salam
3. February 2009 at 2:43 pm
“Marrying down” or “looking for a green card”. Really? Are we still stuck in that debate? I wonder what is coming next.
I am at loss for words to express how offensive that is. Please stop.
3. February 2009 at 2:57 pm
Ah, Sooraj, let's not start anything up again. Let me savor my minor
victory.
3. February 2009 at 3:15 pm
Follow Goris advice Sooraj. She's relishing her victory at my conceding these relationships are different than the ones I'm exposed to and I'm relishing my victory that she agrees with me on India's cultural sexism.
Let us bask for a while in the bliss.
As far as “marrying up or down”, you don't think it happens?
Un-pc as it sounds, your parents and and my parents generations know exactly what I'm talking about.
But I don't consider “caste”, “class” , or even culture in my totem pole. I consider intellect and “awareness” which transcends caste, class or culture.
So maybe that makes it more acceptable for you?
3. February 2009 at 3:44 pm
So maybe that makes it more acceptable for you?
No it doesn't. I think there are factors other than than equality in terms of intellectual ability or even awareness that contribute to a successful and happy marriage or a committed relationship. I will definitely rank common goals and aspirations higher than approximately equal IQ.
How could any one possibly quantify some ones ability to be a good partner to another person? If we knew that, one might envision designing a new way off arranging marriages. Hmm….
Apart from that flaw the inherent assumption that some how being not educated or being from a village automatically makes a person less intelligent or less aware of things is just absurd.
3. February 2009 at 4:05 pm
I didn't mention IQ anywhere. Those tests are outdated, passe and lack range.
Geez.
The thing is, you actually DO get what I'm talking about because you rank “common goals”.
So the goals can be up or down if they are not the same or equal.
We are talking about the same thing here but you don't even realize it. And as far as education, I was careful not to use that word. Education (if we are talking about the “education system” here) has little to do with intellect and awareness in my opinion.
And I believe in the principle behind arranged marriage. The arranged marriage system was indeed designed to bring “equal” together. Duh. However, where I take issue with the arranged marriage system in India is that they stop at caste, class, culture, religion, education, money and other external factors, which, if you read my comment, I don't put that external material stuff on my totem pole or in my hierarchy. My totem pole is based on subtle elements of compatiblitiy like …………… intellect, awareness, common goals (which will be common based on intellect and awareness), and other things like sexual chemistry which is important in a marriage.
If the arranged marriage system focused more on these subtle factors and less on the material factors, it would be a great blessing.
As far as “first wave feminism” in India, I know that India has always had women who went against the tide of culture/society and fought for various freedoms, however, big or small, in pockets here and there throughout the land. However, due to the onslaught of communications technology in the last 20 years, and especially the birth of the internet, women are networking and mobilizing in India now like never before. Hence I said, “first wave”.
The link you refered to me which explained a fight for lower caste women to be able to wear shirts and not have to bare their naked breasts to the upper castes was interesting. I never knew there were once women who were forced by brahmins to bear their naked breasts in public.
However, do you think it's a possiblity that that particular “documented history” could have been fabricated by the Brits in order to make Indians appear in need of civilizing?
I'm not saying it didn't happen. It is likely. However, conquering empires fabricating falsehoods about “natives” have also happened and is a likely possibility too.
24. October 2009 at 5:48 pm
I’m an Indian guy born in the US and happily married to an Indian woman. My best advice is to respect yourself and your own American culture. Why in the world should you have to wear a sari and pretend to be some subservient Indian daughter in law?!?! If some Indian family is intolerant and prejudiced against you because you’re white, and your spineless boyfriend puts up with it — leave him — he’s a wus. Seriously, why do you want to be with a guy who doesn’t stick up for you, and interract with his family of jerks? I’m sure you’re a very nice girl, and frankly you can do better than hitch up with a bunch of back-water Indians who don’t realize they no longer live in India. Incidentally, I think Indian parents are hugely annoying as in-laws regardless of who their kids marry. Too much Bollywood melodrama ingrained in them.
5. November 2009 at 12:05 pm
I really doubt that you are ‘Indian Man’. Your attitude towards Indian stinks of prejudice, ignorance and too much Hollywood.
Did you tell you tell your ‘indian wife’ exactly what you think of her parents before you married them?
You sound like a sheep in wolf’s clothing.
I suggest you stick to eating your beefburgers and watching porn. Both of which are plentiful in the land of equality and sugar coated parents.
5. November 2009 at 12:13 pm
Raj, this blog has a strict policy against insulting other commenters, and you are just toeing that line. You’re free to disagree with others, but please avoid personal attacks & insults. First strike out of three.
5. November 2009 at 12:29 pm
Thanks for putting me straight…..Can I make just one more tiny only slightly insulting remark? No I guess not
But seriously, I was not trying to insult all Americans… just this one!
Might I suggest that insulting one person is not as bad as insulting millions as I feel he did!
5. November 2009 at 12:41 pm
Constructive: “IndianDude, I think you’re simplifying a complex topic – and you’re kinda insulting all Indians by saying things like ‘backwater Indians’ and suggesting that all Indian parents are annoying as inlaws.” Etc. etc.
Destructive: some of what you said – i.e. ad hominem attacks. Attack his argument, attack his phrasing, attack perceived hypocrisy if you wish. But don’t stoop to this: “I suggest you stick to eating your beefburgers and watching porn. Both of which are plentiful in the land of equality and sugar coated parents.”
You’re better than that. And, dude, what’s wrong with beef & porn anyways? They’re not for everyone certainly, but they’re fine enough.
2. December 2009 at 2:40 pm
Gori Girl Kudos for you keeping up with all the comments on your blog!!! I did not read them all. But one comment I do feel compelled to make is this- about the American girl learning Indian language. It’s good for trips to India when they are required and also talk ahead of time if any plans on the boy’s part to return to India to care for aging/sick parents. Then a language skill is more required as the daughter in law usually is in charge of these things. (Sorry If I repeat anyone else here…)
But above and beyond all this learning language and bigger picture things too- I did not see much about daily life.
Food is a BIG thing for Indians in general and in most cases women cook food. I love Indian food and knew South Indian cooking before I got married, though am continuing to learn North Indian as my south Indian hubby who grew up in Delhi prefers that. I don’t mind missing American foods for family meals – though I live in America. These daily things are most likely someof the things that break up marriages. If a ‘woman’ or the ‘cook of the house’ has to cook two or three meals (usually the kids wants something else- even if the parents both want Indian food,for instance- this happens even in families where both parents are Indian living in America)…. this is ALOT of work and buying readymade is expensive let alone not as tasty or healthy.
Other daily habits should be scrutinized too- like how much the partner to be prays- are they ritualistic about it. Also what have they seen their parents do. Even if they dont’ do something before marriage- marriage changes people in some ways. For instance many of my desi friends were not religious before marriage soon as they get married (to another desi) and especially when having children going to temple, church or mosque is suddenly a weekly ritual. Also does the partner to be expect you to be homely or is it ok to go out and do things on your own or with friends?? More questions can be asked. This should be done even if not a cross-cultural marriage, as well.
8. June 2010 at 12:20 pm
Gori Girl,
I did read all of the posts and towards the end I just couldn’t take it anymore! lol
However, I was/am very interested in the first threads of the conversation. Travelergal had questions about how to handle her inter-cultural relationship.
I have posted before but I can’t find that thread….
I’m an African American woman that is in a serious relationship with a Nepali man. We just had a talk with his parents (still in Nepal) about our marriage plans next year. I got a great vibe and “conditional approval”, although there has been SOME hesitation on their part (the big D word came up more than once), but BJ stood up for me and continually tells them that he is serious about me and will “marry me in his country”. This is a big deal as he will be publicly proclaiming me to his family, village, and the world (as he likes to say).
Now I just want to know in general if there is anyone like me out there? Specifically any AA women married or in relationships with Nepali men. What kind of issues/obstacles did you encounter? And What are the positives that you can pass along?
]; the biggest issue is the fact that he is currently thier financial provider and their fear of him possibly skipping out on his obligation to them for the next year or so…. I have expressed to him (he understands that I understand his committment to them) and to them that I will stand by him and help in whatever way we can.
I though my color would be a big issue with his parents [in fact, it isn't...mom says "you are looking like a nepali girl ya"...tho I don't think so
I’d like to continue to acclimate myself to their culture: I’m learning the language, cooking the food, and try to speak with the family often (phone/webcam/etc). Any suggestions, ideas, or pats of support?
I would just feel so much better knowing that I am not solo in this kind of situation. Not looking for validation, just encouragement and support.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks so much!