Me? Oh, well, I don’t have a faith. And, no, I’m not interested in getting one either.
That was my polite non-answer when asked about my religious beliefs by two Christians who stopped by Aditya’s and my doorstop to proselytize last weekend. And it was as true, as far as it goes – I’m not one much for simple faith in any context. When discussing my religious beliefs with friends & family, I’m most likely to to describe myself simply as an atheist. But when I’m feeling a little mischievous – or argumentative – I’ll sometimes put in that I’m an atheist – and a Hindu.
Yeah, it’s a bit of a complicated situation; I blame Aditya for it completely. Like many other things in my life, religion is something that has become more complicated since we set off on our intercultural marriage adventure.
My religious past
Growing up, I’d describe my family as nominal Christians, like so many other Americans. We’d occasionally go to church, we’d celebrate Christmas and Easter with both secular and religious iconography & stories, and one summer I went to a day Bible camp at the urging of my (more religious) grandparents.
I never really “got” religion. When I went to church while my grandparents were visiting it was because after Sunday School they served doughnuts! And juice! At five I was junk-food deprived. I did try to understand & believe in what I heard in church and from family members – I distinctly remember trying to fit the Christian story of creation together with my understanding of evolution when I was six:
Maybe the kids of Adam and Eve interbred with the evolved humans, and people who are particularly stupid or do bad things like murder and steal are that way because they have more monkey genes!
Moral theory, eugenics and faith-based science in one sentence from a six year old! (There are family members who are surprised that I’ve managed to grow up into a reasonably sane adult.) To compound things further, when I was ten I stumbled onto both Dostoevsky and philosophy, and, well, early exposure to that sort of thing is bound to screw a kid up. In my case, Ivan Karamazov’s presentation of the problem of the evil rocked my world view, and ultimately led me to disbelieve in an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent god:
Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature- that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance- and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions?
Since then I’ve read significantly on religion, ethics, and the philosophy of religion, but nothing I’ve read has given me such a strong punch to the gut – and nothing has changed my mind on the nonexistence of the Abrahamic God. That, along with strong leanings towards secular Humanism and a scientific mindset were all of my “religious” beliefs when I met Aditya.
Hinduism & Aditya
Aditya is very up front about his religious beliefs. While I wouldn’t call my husband a “spiritual person”, many of his actions and thoughts seem to flow from his religious background and beliefs – like many Hindus I know.
He’ll be writing his own post on the topic of religion and our relationship, so I won’t attempt to explain his religious beliefs myself – suffice it to say, he calls himself an atheistic Hindu – although pantheistic Hindu might be more accurate. Prior to meeting him, I had very little knowledge of Hinduism, besides the fact that it talked about reincarnation. I did know it had something to do with reincarnation, and lots of gods. Speaking of, here’s a Fun Reincarnation Anecdote: as a barbaric, bloodthirsty child I used to go out after it rained to get rid of the snails in our garden. My mom initially objected to my use of a salt shaker as the weapon of choice, but desisted when I appealed to her vague hippie leanings that the snails were probably just people who had been very bad in past lives, and were getting what was coming to ‘em. That Russian literature, it screws a person up, I’m telling you.
Anyways, when Aditya and I first became a serious couple one of my first actions was to audit a Hinduism course, as described in this post – although I admit part of my motivation was to end the association I had between Hinduism and evil snails. Each new aspect of Hinduism that I discovered through the class led to hours of discussion with Aditya as I learned about the specific practices he and his family followed (none of it included snails).
After these discussions I never worried that religion would be a source of friction in our relationship because our belief sets, while somewhat different, are mutually respectable and give us similar Weltanschauungs (worldviews). I think both of these – respect of the other’s beliefs, and similar mindsets, if not similar beliefs – are key to a successful relationship. I know that I could never have a serious romantic relationship with a Christian or moral relativist simply because those beliefs are antithetic to mine – and given my fascination with philosophy of religion and metaethics we’d never quit arguing about it. And as Aditya will attest, I am a classically-trained s.o.b. in a philosophical argument.
It also helped that I find many of the religious texts of Hinduism – particularly the Gita and the Upanishads – incredibly meaningful as philosophy, albeit not presented in the analytical framework I’m most familiar with. And while I don’t hold with the superstitions of any religion, including Hinduism, I certainly don’t think that the rituals and traditions of Hinduism are bunk, as I discussed in this blog post on intercultural acceptance. Rather, for me, ritual and tradition are the containers within which substance is stored – they create meaning in the same way as performative speech.
Becoming a Hindu?
While I incorporated some Hindu beliefs and rituals in my daily life and thoughts since studying the religion in college, I have only been somewhat comfortable calling myself a Hindu since having an Arya Samaj wedding a year & a half ago. Until that point I would have said that I agree with some Hindu philosophy (I use “some” as a modifier since the heterogeneity of Hinduism means that no one can coherently accept all parts of Hindu philosophy). So why the change?
Well, as a wife of a Hindu man, a daughter in a Hindu family, and a eventual mother of Hindu kids, I am now not just a believer in some Hindu thought , but also a participant in Hindu culture and family life. And for me, personally, that makes the difference between being a Hindu and believing in some parts of Hinduism. It’s an odd distinction to many Westerners, I think, who are use to the straightforward conversion processes in Abrahamic religions, which have relatively clearer doctrines of faith than most religions developed in Asia, which can often be atheistic in nature.
Hinduism’s mark can be seen in our household – if you look closely – but day-to-day life isn’t much different than what you would expect in your typical nonreligious Western home. There’s a shelf of religious texts above my shelf of ethics & philosophy books. One flat surface in the house plays host to a Nataraja, a Buddha, incense, and a growing collection of Ganishas – but also has Indian knicknacks and the occasional tea mug. Setting up a better puja area is on the long to-do list…
But, really, that’s about it. We don’t go to Hindu temple regularly, despite the fact that there’s two temples within ten miles (I wasn’t joking when I wrote that we now live in the Desi suburbs of DC). We don’t follow many common rituals – and there’s certainly no daily household pujas happening here! Right or wrong, I do sometimes feel that this lack of outwardly trappings of Hinduism makes my claim on Hinduism less “real”, at least to others. This is a relatively recent phenomenon – when I was simply a humanist atheist I never questioned whether my identity in that group was real or not. I suspect part of the issue is simply the way Aditya and I are settling into life and looking for a community; I’ve even been considering hitting up the local Unitarian Universalists to see if we’d fit in there, with our atheistic notions and statues of gods. The two, after all, are an odd combination to most people.
In the end though, I feel extremely comfortable with my philosophical and religious beliefs. Hinduism was an unexpected addition to my philosophy, but I have no doubt that I’m much richer for it (Aditya was unexpected too – so help me, as a preteen I had a grand plan of studying math at CalTech, getting an MBA in Switzerland, and marrying an Austrian). And while it’d be pure hubris to say I’ve got this whole religion thing figured out by my mid-twenties, I do think I’ve developed a good structure on which to grow my understanding in the future. And, hey, I’ve always got my Russian literature to fall back on.
(Not Leo Tolstoy though – he’s a religious fruitcake.)
10. June 2009 at 2:47 pm
Another ABCG (American Born Confused Gori) ha ha
Just kidding. Sort. Of.
10. June 2009 at 3:04 pm
Uh, no. I am about the furthest thing possible from “confused” regarding my religious & philosophical beliefs.
10. June 2009 at 5:32 pm
GG- I am very happy that you put up this post when you did! It was really interesting reading about your transition into hinduism/the theories of hinduism.
It was very interesting seeing as you were brought up in a christian household, and how you made your way to hinduism. I was born in a family that did not label a religion on us. My father was raised as a catholic and felt it was forced onto him by my grandparents. So him and my mother decided that they wanted my siblings and I to “find our own religion”. I grew up with a kind of what I thought was “squashed” religious theory. Just random things I tended to believe in. The funny thing was is when I met S and discovered Sikhism I started to find many of my thoughts were the same. Weird huh?
Its great to see how happy and confident you are with your beliefs about hinduism and such.
10. June 2009 at 5:57 pm
Great post, very well written, although it did take me a while to click through the 200 hyperlinks. :p
It would be good to read some more detail behind some statements (“many of his actions and thoughts seem to flow from his religious background and beliefs – like many Hindus I know”, or “our belief sets, while somewhat different, are mutually respectable and give us similar Weltanschauungs”) – maybe in future posts?
10. June 2009 at 6:03 pm
Well, you don't have to click on all of 'em, you know.
Some are there when I think a word or concept will trip up some readers, and others are links to posts on the subject that I think are particularly interesting – in case it's a subject you want to know more about.
I certainly do want to write more in the future, but at over 1,500 words, I thought I'd said enough for one post.
10. June 2009 at 9:50 pm
Nifty post. I too am considering the UUs – we went to one service and I totally dug it. But we're also lazy and like to sleep in on Sundays, so for now we're mostly happy being non-religious.
Also, I went to Caltech so your grand plans as a preteen made me smile. That was not my plan, but it was the only college in California I applied to, and it was snowing in April in Pittsburgh when I had to make my decision on where to go, so the sun won
10. June 2009 at 9:55 pm
I loved reading this post!
Reading someone’s views on religion and spirituality always interest me…especially when they are so close to my own.
Although I will say that I never got around to the whole snail thing…my salt terrorizing days ended with slugs.
On the 21st I’m going to Arya Samaj for my Shudhi Karma. I’m excited about that. One of the elders there is Sudhir Anand. He wrote a book called “Who Is God? Does God Have Shape or Form?” This book was amazing and opened up so many new discussions between Bear and I. I also am learning that there are so many facets to the Hindu faith…and that not all Hindu’s worship multiple God’s. He does a wonderful job in explaining the correlations and similarities between Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism. I recommend it.
10. June 2009 at 10:04 pm
GoriGirl wrote: “Rather, for me, ritual and tradition are the containers within which substance is stored – they create meaning in the same way as performative speech.”
Great wisdom. Good Post. Can't wait to hear what Aditya has to write on this topic.
11. June 2009 at 7:39 am
I had a very similar religious upbringing to LMD. I'm still pretty happily non-religious, but I have a lot of respect for Hinduism as G's family practices it and we plan to raise our kids in those beliefs. (I know Hinduism can vary a lot depending on who/where you are…I haven't been exposed to any issues around caste or sexism with my in-laws' practice of Hinduism as I've seen mentioned by other people around the Internets.) I tend to call myself an agnostic/honorary Hindu if people ask, since I've now participated in more Hindu rituals than those of any other religion.
I regret never taking a class on Hinduism in college, when it would've been easy to do it. I would like to eventually do a little more reading on the subject, though. I've read the Bhagavad Gita, but I'd like more of a textbook that explains the history and context of the religion. Anyone have any recommendations?
11. June 2009 at 8:10 am
For a introductory text(s) containing the historical context of the various Indian faiths, I would recommend Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 1: From the Beginning to 1800 and Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 2: Modern India and Pakistan. They're older books – most recently published in the late '80s, but they're still considered quite good AND they contain plenty of primary texts.
Flood's Introduction to Hinduism is my favorite basic introductory book. However, it doesn't contain primary sources – for that I'd suggest The Hindu Tradition: Readings in Oriental Thought as a good book covering all the eras (don't be put off by the “Oriental Though” bit). For more primary texts, I'd suggest this book for the Upanishads, and I like Miller's translation of the Gita, altho it isn't perfect.
Darsan: Seeing the Divine Image in India is good for getting a deeper understanding of Hindu ritualism and iconography – even if you aren't for religion much, it's a good book to read to give you a deeper appreciation of the various carvings, paintings, etc that you will see if you visit temples or historical sites in India.
Finally, I just came across this picture book on the gods of Hinduism, and have fallen in love with the design & illustrations. Haven't seen it in person yet, so I'm not sure if the accompanying text is the most accurate or not.
4. November 2009 at 3:27 pm
Try reading this book – it will give you more insight into true religion and you will become imtelligent on God consiousness.
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Self-Realization-Bhaktivedanta-Swami-Prabhupada/dp/0892132868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257366423&sr=8-1
11. June 2009 at 8:21 am
For a introductory text(s) containing the historical context of the various Indian faiths, I would recommend Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 1: From the Beginning to 1800 and Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 2: Modern India and Pakistan. They're older books – most recently published in the late '80s, but they're still considered quite good AND they contain plenty of primary texts.
Flood's Introduction to Hinduism is my favorite basic introductory book. However, it doesn't contain primary sources – for that I'd suggest The Hindu Tradition: Readings in Oriental Thought as a good book covering all the eras (don't be put off by the “Oriental Though” bit). For more primary texts, I'd suggest this book for the Upanishads, and I like Miller's translation of the Gita, altho it isn't perfect.
Darsan: Seeing the Divine Image in India is good for getting a deeper understanding of Hindu ritualism and iconography – even if you aren't for religion much, it's a good book to read to give you a deeper appreciation of the various carvings, paintings, etc that you will see if you visit temples or historical sites in India.
Finally, I just came across this picture book on the gods of Hinduism, and have fallen in love with the design & illustrations. Haven't seen it in person yet, so I'm not sure if the accompanying text is the most accurate or not.
11. June 2009 at 8:46 am
Nice writing. Now, if the rest of the World will just embrace spiritual atheism… one only wishes.
11. June 2009 at 10:40 am
Spiritual atheism means what? Not believing in god but doing some superstitious stuff in order to fit in with a foreign culture?
11. June 2009 at 10:40 am
Thanks! It figures that my library has none of those books, even though I live basically in the middle of Little India. I'll have to check the university library or the Borders library instead. (Yeah, we constantly buy books at Borders, read them, and return them. It's bad, I know.)
That picture book looks adorable, too. G and his brother had picture books of the Hindu gods while they were growing up and my MIL keeps meaning to dig them up to give to me. I'll have to help her look for them next time I'm over there.
11. June 2009 at 10:47 am
Both your local community library and the university library should almost certainly offer interlibrary loan options – at most community libraries I think you need to ask, but they still offer it. .
11. June 2009 at 11:41 am
I'm in luck! The local university campus has The Hindu Tradition and Darsan, and a different campus has the Flood book so that's easily ILL'd. I'll have G pick them up for me next time he's on campus. Or whenever, since he's not doing anything this summer (ah, the life of a student with a sugar momma). Also, the Flood and Darsan books are required reading for the Intro to Hinduism class they're offering this summer…good choices, there.
I sent G the link to the picture book, and now he wants to order a copy for our imaginary future kids.
11. June 2009 at 12:10 pm
@Max Mueller's Dharam Patni
ROFL. You sure you don't have a blog somewhere I can subscribe to ?
-Neo
11. June 2009 at 5:11 pm
Yes, that's exactly what it means…
Or, you could engage your mind on google/wikipedia/books, and look up – for example – the etymology of 'atheist' before making smartass remarks.
11. June 2009 at 5:13 pm
Btw, for those who haven't gotten it yet, MMDP is a woman. Her handle translated to max muller's wife.
11. June 2009 at 9:45 pm
Another reason I'm considering attending a UU church: while I don't want to force any particular religious beliefs on my hypothetical children, much like your family, I do want them to think deeply about religion – and UU's by all accounts have an amazing curriculum set up to basically give kids a sound grounding in religious studies. (They also have a great age-appropriate sex education curriculum which I also think is amazing.)
11. June 2009 at 9:47 pm
The dogs get us up too early to sleep in, sadly. But, yeah, getting the motivation to pull ourselves off to a service on a lazy Sunday morning is a problem for us too.
11. June 2009 at 10:26 pm
While, like Ben Casnocha (my blogger crush), I am not at all fond of the common “I'm spiritual but not religious” phrase, I don't see why it's so shocking that atheism (which is simply the disbelief in deities) be paired with spiritualism. After all, there's whole schools of thought in Hinduism that could easily be defined as spiritual atheism – like the dualist Samkhya school, which has been around for nearly 2,000 years. And, of course, you can't forget the many forms of Buddhism which discuss the spirit but profess no belief in deities, or, say, classic Taoism…
Atheistic thought extends far beyond Richard Dawkins (who, don't get me wrong, I mostly love) and his secular humanist, skeptic, scientific rationalist perspective. Instead, it's a very rich philosophical tradition – one I was lucky enough to get to study in depth during my college career. Even had an amazing course centered on the subject of atheism and moral philosophy called Godless Universe. Good times.
11. June 2009 at 10:34 pm
MMDP … Come on now ….. You doesn't have to fit into hinduism .. It fits into you
. Seriously though it might seem like an oxymoron but a little bit of googling will spare you a lot of speculation.;)
12. June 2009 at 4:39 am
This is a particularly ignorant and stupid comment!
As hard as you're trying you just cannot hide your xenophobic beliefs.
Stop and think as to who you are, where you came from before labeling other people's belief's as superstitious and foreign.
Om
12. June 2009 at 6:10 am
Everyone – there are some comments missing from this post; I haven't deleted them – it's just a computer glitch. If they don't reappear in a few hours I'll just repost them, as I still have all the text.
12. June 2009 at 9:05 am
“This is a particularly ignorant and stupid comment!
As hard as you're trying you just cannot hide your xenophobic beliefs.
Stop and think as to who you are, where you came from before labeling other people's belief's as superstitious and foreign.
Om”
Raj please, its not the religious beliefs that are superstitious, its the being an atheist but adopting some external symbols that don't mean anything to her (because they are not symbolizing God to her) that is superstitious.
And I was being sarcastic/facitious anyway. Don't take it too seriously.
I mean she could just as well try to fit in with the Christians she likes to rile up with her “im an atheist” or “im an atheist and hindu” comments, as she tries to fit in with her husband's family.
But I guess its cool and exotic to try to fit in with something that is new to you?
Why not rile up the hubby's Hindu family by speaking facetiously to them?
Why limit to Christians?
Coz she grew up around Christians and she's young and still wants to rebel?
By the way, I am not a Christian. Just using them as an example because its the example she used so its on topic.
I've got nothing against any of the various religions that come under the umbrella of “hinduism” but why use the symbols if you don't believe in any of them?
12. June 2009 at 9:51 am
Heh.
Why do symbols have to symbolize a deity in order to have meaning? For me, a rainbow doesn't symbolize God's promise to never destroy the world in a flood, but that doesn't mean that I can't find value in looking upon a rainbow – even if I know it's just a natural phenomenon caused by light & water.
Furthermore, there's a reason why rituals & symbolism are seen in every culture – they're hardwired into the human mind. Just because I understand the cognitive science behind why it works doesn't mean I should abandon something that has been shown to give great benefits to one's life.
For example, the various types of meditation seen in Hinduism and Buddhism have been practiced and perfected for millennia – and many of them contain spiritual elements or have you focus on particular chants or religious iconography. Why should I throw away the value of the focus and clarity that meditation can bring just because I don't believe that there's an actual deity behind the iconography?
Or consider a Saraswati puja. Even though I don't believe that there exists a deity who is the goddess of learning, I think it's extremely valuable to take a moment (or a day) to think about learning, books, and education, and be thankful that I've had access to all the learning that I've been lucky enough to receive. The physical act of performing a puja is a way to concentrate on these thoughts. Practicing thankfulness greatly increases one's happiness in life, at least in my experience and in the readings I've done on the subject. And having an image of Saraswati in the house (which we do) makes it all the more likely that I'll remember to be thankful for my education & knowledge – and also remind me that I have a moral responsibility to help others receive learning as well (given the incredible personal and economic value that education brings).
Now, why Hindu iconography? Well, as I stated in the post, I know about Hinduism through Aditya. *shrug* We share a home & a life – and he brings with him into our marriage his religion. It'd be pretty shitty of me to deny him the chance to share specific aspects of his religion that he has found meaning from with me. Especially since there's no major conflict in our metaphysics of the world (not that we share the exact same beliefs – he's one of those crazy moral noncongnivists). If I hadn't married Aditya then I might not have used the same symbols to consider the world around me – but my beliefs themselves would not be any different.
Regarding Christianity, well, why would I wish to “fit in” with Christians (in a religious sense) when I think their theology is a false? If they're riled up by my stating that I'm an atheist then they've probably got their own issues. As I stated in the post, I've read extensively on the philosophy of religion and moral epistemology, and I simply do not see a way around the problem of evil that allows the Abrahamic religions to escape with a deity worth worshiping. I'm not an atheist because I'm trying to fit in with my husband's family – I've been an atheist since I was ten or twelve. It's not an act of rebellion against all of Christianity – I do think that some of the New Testament, for example, has value – but simply an acceptance that what they believe in doesn't exist. If Christians – or another faith – can show me rational proof differently, then I'd certainly reconsider my position.
12. June 2009 at 10:22 am
No, i wasn't saying you became an atheist due to your husband's hindu family (that sounds weird!) i was saying, adopting hindu symbols even while being an atheist. if you are an atheist and just adopting symbols because they represent non-god meaning to you, then why not the symbols of Christianity too?
And theres a diff between a rainbow and a Ganesh statue, obviously.
Anyway, these are general points of mine, not neccessarily to be taken literally. Just making a point.
12. June 2009 at 10:36 am
Drive-by posting to say that I agree with much of this. I think in the US, where Christianity is so prevalent (and forced down your throat), it's easier for an atheist or agnostic to embrace the postitive symbols of a religion that's in the minority and has fewer radicals around, like Hinduism. It's like Gandhi's quote, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
12. June 2009 at 10:39 am
What Christian symbols would I adopt?
The Ichthys? But that's simply an acrosti of the word “Christ”, or possibly a symbol of the way Christ performed a miracle to bring food to the masses – which is not a thing I find particularly interesting or inspiring.
The cross? But I don't believe in the idea of sin, or appreciate the idea of dying to save all of humanity for it.
Really, when you get down to it, Christianity has very little iconography – indeed, the amount of iconography in Hinduism is one of it's distinguishing features. Furthermore, while I appreciate some of what Christianity has to teach, I dislike just as much or more of it. When you have a religion completely bound up in the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good deity, if you don't believe in that deity then you aren't going to get very far in that faith. Christianity has a very specific core message – one that I think is absolutely false – whereas Hinduism simply doesn't.
It's also not like I use all of Hindu's vast array of symbols for my personal understanding. A cow is just good eatin' in our household, for instance.
12. June 2009 at 11:25 am
“Drive-by posting to say that I agree with much of this. I think in the US, where Christianity is so prevalent (and forced down your throat), it's easier for an atheist or agnostic to embrace the postitive symbols of a religion that's in the minority and has fewer radicals around, like Hinduism. It's like Gandhi's quote, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Yeah. I can see the logic in that. That would explain why Christianity, a minority religion in predominently Hindu India, holds appeal for a lot of more liberal youth.
I guess it all depends on what religion is being “forced down your throat”.
12. June 2009 at 12:02 pm
I agree.
12. June 2009 at 12:39 pm
For a introductory text(s) containing the historical context of the various Indian faiths, I would recommend Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 1: From the Beginning to 1800 and Sources of Indian Tradition, Vol. 2: Modern India and Pakistan. They're older books – most recently published in the late '80s, but they're still considered quite good AND they contain plenty of primary texts.
Flood's An Introduction to Hinduism is my favorite basic introductory book. However, it doesn't contain primary sources – for that I'd suggest The Hindu Tradition: Readings in Oriental Thought as a good book covering all the eras (don't be put off by the “Oriental Though” bit). For more primary texts, I'd suggest The Upanishads: Breath of the Eternal and I like Miller's translation of the Gita, altho it isn't perfect.
Darsan: Seeing the Divine Image in India is good for getting a deeper understanding of Hindu ritualism and iconography – even if you aren't for religion much, it's a good book to read to give you a deeper appreciation of the various carvings, paintings, etc that you will see if you visit temples or historical sites in India.
Finally, I just came across this picture book on the gods of Hinduism, and have fallen in love with the design & illustrations. Haven't seen it in person yet, so I'm not sure if the accompanying text is the most accurate or not.
12. June 2009 at 12:41 pm
Originally posted by D:
Thanks! It figures that my library has none of those books, even though I live basically in the middle of Little India. I'll have to check the university library or the Borders library instead. (Yeah, we constantly buy books at Borders, read them, and return them. It's bad, I know.)
That picture book looks adorable, too. G and his brother had picture books of the Hindu gods while they were growing up and my MIL keeps meaning to dig them up to give to me. I'll have to help her look for them next time I'm over there.
12. June 2009 at 12:41 pm
Reposting my comment
Both your local community library and the university library should almost certainly offer interlibrary loan options – at most community libraries I think you need to ask, but they still offer it. .
12. June 2009 at 2:42 pm
“Or consider a Saraswati puja. Even though I don't believe that there exists a deity who is the goddess of learning, I think it's extremely valuable to take a moment (or a day) to think about learning, books, and education, and be thankful that I've had access to all the learning that I've been lucky enough to receive)”.
While I don't share your spiritual beliefs, I think this portion is very important. I guess, for me, my symbols of Christianity (my crosses, mostly, although there are some others) remind me of the values that I, as a Christian, am supposed to act on, too — helping others, being thankful for all that I have, trying to treat other people the way I want to be treated, etc.
In a similiar way, my husband and I have placed a few Hindu symbols around our house – mostly Ganeshas, which, to my husband, symbolize the importance of education, knowledge and wisdom — things I also support and like to have surrounding us.
But it isn't just these two religions – in fact, in college, after visiting Russia, I also placed a Santa Tatiana, the patron saint of students, above my computer.
Personally, even though I don't believe in all of them, I'm fine with having symbols from just about any religion in my home — I feel like most of them have something of value that I can be reminded of everytime I look at them. I don't feel that particular benefit is related to just one particular religion.
13. June 2009 at 9:50 am
Well Gori, Jesus icons or pictures can be used as symbols to represent many things;
compassion, mercy, charity, healing, learning, …..practically anything that could be represented by a “hindu” icon.
Again, I'm not Christian, I'm just using Xtianty and Jesus as an example coz you brought it all up first. It could be any religion or prophet, as icons, pictures, names, etc, only have the meaning that WE subscribe to them.
But I understand the need to rebel against the mainstream. I've been there.
13. June 2009 at 9:31 pm
Except that, as I stated above, I dislike much of the teaching of Christianity, and, yes, Jesus as described in the New Testament. I do not think what Jesus teaches is correct, or, by itself, is a good basis for morality. Why would I wish to use his face as an icon when I think that he was wrong about a lot of things?
That'd be like using Gandhi's image as an icon – I think he was right about some things, and I respect him for that – but I also think he was wrong about a lot of things as well.
You persist in believing that my beliefs are formed in some sort of “rebellion” against Christianity or the mainstream. *shrug* Your choice, but it's pretty pathetic.
14. June 2009 at 5:31 pm
I have Ganesh statues in my house because I can definitely use a little help with removal of obstacles. I'd like to get a really nice Greek Orthodox icon of the Virgin Mary too because I have always seen her as a symbol of strength and motherhood.
And yet I go to neither church, nor temple, but pray to God on my own. Am I a Christian? No. Hindu? No. I sing hymns and bhajans because they both give me happiness and peace. I think that in the end, it's all about communion with the Divine, and I just want to do what makes me feel closer to God and all creation without feeling like a fake. Going to church and saying the Creed makes me feel fake. Following along with Sanskrit words I don't know makes me feel fake. So I don' t do those, and after many years of not being on speaking terms with God, I think we're cool now.
15. June 2009 at 2:31 am
Tell me about any such textbook that exists
. I'm a Hindu and also dabble about in community religious activities when I can find the time. You can find a lot of info. on Hinduism on the web, but as to a kind of an omnibus on Hinduism (sort of like a Bible), I believe nothing of the sort actually exists. The Gita, the Vedas & the Upanishads have a lot of wisdom in them, but are more socio-cultural commentaries than purely religious.
You are right in inferring that Hinduism can vary a lot depending on who/where you are. Perhaps that is why Hinduism has been called Sanatana Dharma (the eternal religion), it tends to assimilate all that is thrown at it and (hopefully!) emerge unscathed. It is perhaps one of the more tolerant religions in the world. So the thing to do would be to perhaps keep on 'experiencing' the multi-faceted Hinduism (at least the palatable aspects!) and stop trying to 'understand'/analyse it in the conventional sense.
15. June 2009 at 2:46 am
Hats off to you, GG (though I don't ear a hat
). Your views have such balance in them! Exactly the kind of beliefs many of us non-practicing Hindus (i.e. those who don't frequent temples on a daily basis, but may go when they want to) hold.
15. June 2009 at 2:58 am
I'd have no quarrel if people do adopt Christianity (or, for that matter, any other religion) – I think it could actually lead to a more multi-religious & multi-cultural society. However, the statement that “Christianity… holds appeal for a lot of more liberal youth” needs to be supported with evidence.
I myself too a Bible Reading Course (and got a certificate as well!) when I was very young. But, in general, my understanding is that Christianity came to India in the 17th & 18th Centuries through evangelists – despite their villification by current-day Hindu fanatics, those wonderful people did a lot of good for the masses apart from converting them to Christianity. As for adoption of Christianity in modern day India, my understanding (may be limited) is that many of such recent converts may happen to be those traditionally portrayed as 'downtrodden' or economically disadvantaged. And becoming Christian may open up to them greater avenues of prosperity & lesser discrimination (on the same lines as conversion of Dalits to Budhism) – again, I find absolutely nothing wrong with that.
So, coming back to the point, I would like to see some evidence of Hinduism 'being foced down your throat' (I don't discount the possibility, especially in the hinterlands) and Christianity holding appeal to the liberal youth (in my estimation, atheism may hold more appeal to them).
15. June 2009 at 8:55 am
My own “beliefs” (if you can call them that… I identify myself as agnostic, generally) stem from being a [Eastern] Religious Studies major — and Hinduism specifically. I think religion is (and should be) a very individualized and personal experience. I am finally comfortable in saying “I don't know, and I'll likely never know” when it comes to religion etc, but my biggest problem was not if Something beyond ourselves exists, but in assuming that yes, Something does, which Something is right?
Several years ago, I went to a ceremony at the Indianapolis Museum of Art where a Hindu priest invoked Ganesha into a statue. As he performed the puja, he explained the importance of the statue and the concept of Darshan. It was a concept with which I was already familiar, but the way the priest explained, the concept really clicked. He explained that Hindus do not worship the statue itself; the statue acts as a marker. The gist of the explanation was: say you ask for directions to the river. I point over in the distance, to a tree. I say, that tree is the river. Of course that tree is not the river. But you go to that tree. And when you are at that tree, then you can see the river. You could not see the river from where you were before, but now, with the tree as your reference, the river is visable . The tree guided you on the right direction, on the right path, but never acted as the river. Such is the statue with the god.
I took the idea another step forward and applied it to world religions — perhaps there is one Truth/Something/Beyond/Answer. (I hesitate to say God(s), but for many people this is one in the same). The religions act as trees, as focal points, in the quest for Truth etc. They might be different shapes or distances from the Truth etc (who am I to say?) but no tree/religion is any more or any less of a tree than any other.
The same is NOT true for the practitioners of each religion — what an individual does with his/her own actions (in the name of Religion or whatever else) can reflect positively or poorly on his/herself as well as his/her fellows. I'm mostly working with conceptualizations and generalities (which is always somewhat dangerous) . And I like to leave room for my own philosophy and ideas to grow and shift with any new evidence I may garner, or any new life experiences that may be thrown my way.
15. June 2009 at 12:53 pm
“So, coming back to the point, I would like to see some evidence of Hinduism 'being foced down your throat' (I don't discount the possibility, especially in the hinterlands) and Christianity holding appeal to the liberal youth (in my estimation, atheism may hold more appeal to them). “
Debashish, not being literally forced down my throat, but in India, Hinduism and its icons are EVERYWHERE. Sometimes I could not sleep at night due to jagrans over the loud speaker for this or that deity.
In comparison, the “forcing down the throat” of Christianity in the US is very mild, and several decibles less!
Again, my point is not about X,Y,Z relgion, its about how the majority religion in any place becomes the de-facto cultural point.
Youth in their teens and twenties who are seeking to individuate themselves often will align more with a minority religion or culture so as to go against the status quo.
I've seen this in India amongst some young people from a Hindu background. Come on, we know the Indian (news) media does this a lot. I'm not going to get into the media politics around Hinduism and Islam and Christianity as it plays out in Desh. But we know that the majority religion is often faulted and the minority ones get a free pass from what I guess some term “liberal media” in India.
16. June 2009 at 8:24 am
I grew up in a UU church. It has its own issues, but overall, I really liked it. If I am in an area where there's a good one near me when my kids are the appropriate age, I'll bring them.
Be warned, though, that (I guess like all churches) the community can vary significantly from one congregation to the next. So if you go to one and hate it, you may very well find that the congregation the opposite direction from you is a great fit.
16. June 2009 at 4:52 pm
I find this kind of discussion and religion in general fascinating. I am a bit confused though, because if someone is an atheist (doesn't believe in God), how that same person also be Hindu or have Hindu values? Don't Hindus believe in God/Gods?
16. June 2009 at 4:59 pm
Some Hindus do. Some Hindus only believe in one god. Other Hindus don't believe in any god at all.
16. June 2009 at 5:21 pm
The word “Hinduism” is nothing more than an umbrella under which the various indigenous religions of South Asia are grouped for the sake of convenience.
16. June 2009 at 5:53 pm
@Laxmi: May be reading Hymn of Creation in rig veda will be helpful.
Here is a link to it's translation.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129...
12. July 2009 at 11:58 am
GG, I share so many of your views on this. I so didn't “get” religion either, especially Christianity. Hinduism has been such a welcome addition to my spiritual outlook. I never would've expected it though. I still remember the time when I was working in London (over 10 years ago) and had an Indian colleague. She mentioned the concept of reincarnation one day, and I just couldn't comprehend it at the time. I was really mentally closed off from it, and looked at her incredulously. And all those colourful pictures of so many Gods! What could all that possibly mean. lol.
Well, now I actually have a Saraswati that sits alongside the Ganpattis in our apartment. What Hinduism has made me realise is that there are so many different aspects of “God” (which I consider to be energy and conciousness) and ways to reach “God”. The many gods of Hinduism provide focus for that. Need to remove obstacles? Pray to Ganpatti. Wealth and good fortune? Lakshmi. etc. Of course, Saraswati appeals to me a great deal because of the creativity and writing aspect. I do believe that the statue is a way of directing the thought (as a marker, like Amanda H mentioned in her comment). It makes “God” more identifiable and approachable. But ultimately, all the prayers and thoughts are going in the one direction/ will end up in the one place, whether I pray to Saraswati or Ganpatti. And as for Hinduism and all those “crazy tales”, well they're used to illustrate spiritual points too. It's necessary to look into the deeper meaning behind them.
Just like there are many roads you can take to reach one city, I believe there are many approaches to the one greater energy/conciousness (God). Christianity doesn't inspire me much at all, so it's definitely not the right road for me.
14. July 2009 at 10:34 am
I am really glad to have stumbled upon this blog! I am married to an American woman of Indian descent and enjoy the entries.
I also grew up in a UU church, though don't attend now. I would echo the sentiment that UU churches really can differ and my experience is that many of them have a large population of people who have a chip on their shoulder about religion. I am so glad to have grown up there and been exposed to religion and philosophy of all sorts. I actually have more interest in Hinduism than my wife as her parents followed Christianity as well as Hinduism (damn Missionaries!) and when they moved to rural Virginia, Christianity was the path of least resistance.
11. September 2009 at 10:22 am
I found it amusing to read Aditya and your views on religion. I am desi and my husband is American. We did not have a religious ceremony at all and are not very religious . I was very amused to read both of your religious leanings (for lack of a better word) because Roger and I share very similar views. While I believe in a creator I have a very need based relationship with God, but Roger on the other hand who was raised an Unitarian and once he got older chose not to follow any religion at all after marriage loosly follows Hinduism. He occassionally does not mind visiting the temple (maybe twice a year) and if asked he will say he is a Hindu. Not that he is very involved in the religion. I think for him it is the uniqueness of a different religion and sometimes just to annoy people.
28. September 2009 at 4:04 pm
Nice read and follow-up. I am no scholar in theology, but my interests are more in origins of religions and the era of time around that, rather than religion itself (I am a MD by profession).
Few points:
1)You cannot be converted in Hinduism. There is no ritual for that. You can either be born as a Hindu or live like a Hindu. ( I was born as Hindu but I don’t know what I am evolving into)
2)Please take off the Buddha idol or statue from your collection. If you really understand and know his philosophy it would be unfair to him. Read more about it on kill Buddha project.
3)The books you mentioned were written before gods were introduced in there. Try reading about why Buddha and Mahavir came out from Hinduism and formed Buddhism and Jainism respectively.
4)For worshipping Idols, here’s food for thought: Majority of Hindus who are follower of Shiva’s they worship an idol called “shivlingam” literally it means “Shiva’s penis”. Actually it is Shiva’s penis and Parvati’s Vagina (his wife). I was very amazed by the idea that these people who started worshipping this idol understood the origin of life. It sounds very rudimentary and primitive, but intelligent. If you sit down and think about it the actual idol is nothing but a penis and vagina and that’s the true origin of life. This is well before language started and later it was labeled as shivlingam. Read more about the origin or shivlingam..
1. October 2009 at 12:33 pm
1)You cannot be converted in Hinduism. There is no ritual for that. You can either be born as a Hindu or live like a Hindu. ( I was born as Hindu but I don’t know what I am evolving into)
–> This is true, though most Hindu theologists would say that marrying into a Hindu family is a common interpretation of meeting the requirements for converting. This started during the Hindu revivalist movement in the late 19th century.
2)Please take off the Buddha idol or statue from your collection. If you really understand and know his philosophy it would be unfair to him. Read more about it on kill Buddha project.
–> I think you are confusing idolatry with symbolism. The goal of having the Buddha temple is not worshiping Buddha, but showing respect to what Buddha stood for.
3)The books you mentioned were written before gods were introduced in there. Try reading about why Buddha and Mahavir came out from Hinduism and formed Buddhism and Jainism respectively.
–> I am not sure what this comment is referring to… Also, technically, Mahavir did not form Jainism – he popularized it.
4)For worshipping Idols, here’s food for thought: Majority of Hindus who are follower of Shiva’s they worship an idol called “shivlingam” literally it means “Shiva’s penis”. Actually it is Shiva’s penis and Parvati’s Vagina (his wife). I was very amazed by the idea that these people who started worshipping this idol understood the origin of life. It sounds very rudimentary and primitive, but intelligent. If you sit down and think about it the actual idol is nothing but a penis and vagina and that’s the true origin of life. This is well before language started and later it was labeled as shivlingam. Read more about the origin or shivlingam..
–> the beauty of Hinduism and is symbolism is that different people can take different things from it. While it is common knowledge that the Shivalinga is an ithyphallic symbol – its meaning has changed over the years. The fact that many modern Hindus would be shocked by the origin of the symbolism does tell us that the significance has changed over time.
2. October 2009 at 12:16 pm
This is true, though most Hindu theologists would say that marrying into a Hindu family is a common interpretation of meeting the requirements for converting. This started during the Hindu revivalist movement in the late 19th century.
I would argue against that. Marrying anyone who is hindu by arya samaj method (that’s how we got married) does not constitute becoming one as a hindu (its opposite for Islam and Christianity). You have to live like a hindu to be a hindu. My friend is a Hindu and he married someone who follows Christianity. They practice both the religion.
I think you are confusing idolatry with symbolism. The goal of having the Buddha temple is not worshiping Buddha, but showing respect to what Buddha stood for.
The best way to show respect for Buddha (actually Buddha didn’t wanted you to show him any respect) is to not build his temple but to work on his philosophy. His original work got so much diluted over the years that people are actually forgetting what he stood for.
the beauty of Hinduism and is symbolism is that different people can take different things from it. While it is common knowledge that the Shivalinga is an ithyphallic symbol – its meaning has changed over the years. The fact that many modern Hindus would be shocked by the origin of the symbolism does tell us that the significance has changed over time.
True. Each and every symbol has a really important meaning to the era in which it was established. It’s fascinating; I am too interested in them. None of the Hindus I know (family n friends) knew about the Shivalingham. And when I explain them the actual thing, they were shocked.
So to the OP (original poster) take your time, learn and enjoy reading about Hinduism.
Does anyone know any good lit on religions in india from 1300-1600 AD. I am just missing that important era in time..
14. December 2009 at 3:32 pm
While I’m not in an intercultural relationship, I’ve really enjoyed reading the entry on religion and seeing all of the posts people have put up. Do any of you think that an intercultural relationship could be torn apart by religious beliefs? Do they present that big of an obstacle? Thanks!
28. December 2009 at 5:39 pm
I think it would depend on the strength of belief of the two individuals, as well as how compatible their two religions might be. Aditya’s and my beliefs are similar enough that our different perspectives don’t stress our relationship at all – but for others, I could see how religious differences (and the different worldviews that can go along with them) could stress a relationship too much.
9. July 2010 at 5:24 pm
Hello GG,
I came across your blog while doing a search for something Hinduism-related. I was brought up Hindu, with a lot of exposure to Catholicism (father is Hindu, mother was Catholic). I call myself a Hindu now simply because I have the freedom to learn and explore and am not bound by rigid systems of belief. It’s like Sharell says – there really aren’t many “Gods”, simply facets that you can focus on because the human brain isn’t really wired to understand.
You might find it interesting to read about “Brahman”, the philosophical concept of ultimate reality. Wikipedia has a decent article on it.
FYI – you can be Hindu and atheist. The oldest schools of Hindu philosophy were atheistic!
5. August 2010 at 9:40 pm
Hey.
I’m born in an Guyanese (of 100% Indian descent) family which is Hindu. My great grandfathers used to own temples in Guyana and as a kid my dad used to tell me that at the root of Hinduism is atheism. I completely understand how you feel because I’ve always regarded myself as humanitarian atheist with Hindu philosophy, it’s just hard to explain it to people, including my distant (and very religious) Hindu cousins.
However, finding something that fits my lifestyle is comforting..
9. August 2010 at 7:17 pm
GG
Wonderful post to read up on, and thanks to a friend on a forum who “agrees” to disagree with me on place of “ethics” within “dharma”.
My SHQ (Supreme Head Quarters == wife) was a visiting student from a German, rigorously Catholic family, who met me in a class I was lecturing somewhere in Europe. Although we both felt it, it was she who had to propose because of standard “academic ethics”, and I had to respond in proper “approved” manner. When she returned home for vacation she let me know that she had decided to formally “come out” of the church.
I had offered that I had no problem with her Christianity as long as she did not try to impose it on me. But apparently, long and intense debates and expositions and references [I still lecture!] had made her decide that future generations should be brought up Hindu and that she wanted to belong entirely.
I have had a complicated journey through Marxist, and both the European as well as “Indic” philosophical schools, and a passionate obsession with history from quite early in life. But even my parents, coming from solidly orthodox streams of “Hinduism” chose not to have idols or symbols or rituals in our house. I, on the other hand, for most of my life have tried to “believe” but am still unable to close my mind off to believing that an ultimate answer is possible.
I find that only the “Hindu” allows my basic drive to a permanent quest rather than acceptance of a given answer. The pleasure of life, at least for me, is the pleasure of that journey, and not the destination itself. That non stationary position is a possible position within “Hindu” thought. It also fits in with both my intuitive openness to non-rational experiences as well as my firm involvement and commitment to the conventional scientific method of inquiry – and binds me to neither.
What does it all have to do with love and SHQ. Because her change forced me to analyze myself and clarify my position to her, something I had never felt the need before to do.
Perhaps a dialectical process of thesis, antithesis and synthesis – with the end product different from what we started out with.
At the end of the day, from both of us, let
“madhu vata ritayate/madhu ksharanti sindhava” for you and Aditya.
10. August 2010 at 9:16 pm
You Hindus wax ecstatic about the philosophy of life and spirituality, but would cringe at the site of a Dalit who dared to cross your path. That is the hilarity in Hinduism. I bet you have never included Hindu caste-based slavery of the Dalits (which continues to date) in your lectures.