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1:01 pm
December 25, 2009
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Kratos
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Hello all. This was a letter that I wrote to Gori Girl and I wanted to share this story/background with you. Thank you for reading. I look forward to hearing back from you:
Dear Gori Girl,
I just wanted to say kudos and congrats to you and your husband. I am not sure how the both of you accomplished the insurmountable obstacle of not only meeting his parents but going through all that you have gone through. I myself, am a second generation Indian that was born here in the U.S. and am beginning to feel the weight and burden of being one who is ruled by traditions and lifelong dependencies that get me to ask the question "Who am I living life for?"
You see, unlike your husband's family, my folks are a lot more hardlined and conservative about their beliefs. I have an older brother who was going through some challenges in high school, coping with the extra demands that my father was placing on him to help my dad in his new business that he had opened up. What had ended up happening was that he couldn't handle the pressure and ended up running away from home. It wasn't later on that we had found out that he had ran off and married someone that he had fallen in love with in high school. Suffice to say she wasn't Indian, and would later become a "gori girl." (This website was the first time that I heard of the term "gori girl") This left a very deep emotional scar upon my parents, though it really didn't phase me as much since my brother and I weren't really close to begin with.
When my brother left, my parents ended up having this love/hate relationship in which they would embrace to see him and his family in the off chance that my brother's family would visit. But once he left, they would start talking negative about him and look upon him as a traitor and an outcast. Therefore, the role and responsibility of continuing the family name and the traditions, of which I have neither a clue or an appreciation for, were squarely planted upon me. I was only in middle school when this happened.
The reason I am relating all of this to you, in case you were wondering why I am writing this to you, is because I am not sure if you have had a chance to see the ENTIRE picture of the Indian culture. Now, I am coming from a North Indian, Gujurati background. I am not sure if your husband's background is similar or not.
When I turned 25, my parents really turned up the heat in terms of subtly hinting at me to get married. The proposition of arranged marriages is one of almost unbearable pain and uncertainty. The traditions and ceremonies that are wrapped up in being part of a very traditionalist and classist family are ones of outward facades and appearances with absolutely no substance. It is founded upon pillars of pride, in one's identity and one's misplaced security in how they fit in in their own family. Because my parents are now the eldest members in my family, they carry a high modicum of respect that it falls upon me to uphold that respect. It may sound very noble and awesome, but it truly isn't. You have to understand that the darker side of the Indian culture is complete and total submission to one's parents, above all allegiances that are made to either one's country or one's own personal honor system. It leads to emotional and psychological servitude and slavery.
The question is how in the world did you really reach out to your husband's parents? Matter of fact, how in the world did he convince them to even listen to him? I have tried logic, patience, and reason to reach out to my parents and the only response I have gotten back is more stringent regulations and heightened levels of distrust and suspicion. It had gotten so bad that the relationship that I was in with a really sweet and honest girl (non-Indian) was broken, with her being the more responsible and level-headed in breaking up the relationship. At first I was hurt but then I figured out that there is no way we would have been able to keep a relationship going in secret. When I asked her why she thought it wasn't going to work out, she told me that our pesonalities didn't really match, though I knew that that explanation wasn't the full truth. It took a lot of searching and understanding to come to the realization that she saw this conflict far in advance than I could. I say this, so that if anyone in the forum is in an intercultural relationship with an Indian man whose family is highly conservative and stubbornly proud, you will have to really ask yourself if that man is truly worth a very long and grueling emotional and psychological battle with his family. Times may have changed, but the level of pride and vanity that is inherent in the Indian culture is enough to suffocate the most beautifully blossomed intercultural relationships.
As for the future, I have determined that, truly, there is no way that I could enter into any type of genuine relationship or allow myself to fall for anyone with this burden tied to me. To do so would not only be incredibly selfish, it would be outright criminal. The only escape that I can see, is to move as far, geographically, away from them and then begin the more painful emotional exodus from this fallen culture. It doesn't seem plausible to be in driving distance to them since they want to be an intimate part of every detail of my life. You may consider this a coward's way out, but logic, reason and firm fortitude have given way to their bull-headedness and stern adherence to their family and cultural traditions. I have known fellow Indian men who have nearly committed suicide to escape, and some of you may think that that is illogical and stupid, but you have yet to see just how dark Indian relationships can get. Love has no room, AT ALL. Bear in mind, this is just my personal paradigm based off of my personal experiences. I pray that yours was a more fruitful and enjoyable experience.
The outside world may see a culture full of passion, vibrant colors, spicy foods, exotic silks and nuances that bring novelties into life, but all I see is emotional subservience and no real modicum of independence. You may have had a glimpse of hope with your in-laws, but to the rest of the folks in your forum, I wish you the very best. May your love for your significant other endure and win out against this century-old prideful and vain culture and all of its rules, castes, and classist and elitist paradigms and philosophies. In response to your posting on what traditions should be kept, to that I say that some things, like the whole of the Indian culture, should be just buried with the past. As for what the future holds, I leave that in Jesus' hands. I am positive and hopeful that at least this circle of servitude and slavery known as the Indian culture will die with me, as I'm most sincerely positive I would not want to sire a family and enslave them to this legacy of pain and guilt. Have a Merry Christmas.
Regards,
AC Patel
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8:07 am
December 27, 2009
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cakerbakergirl
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Kratos,
You sound exactly like my Pakistani Canadian bf or at least how I (as a white woman) percieve his existence to be. He too wants to move as far away as possible from his family as an escape. I wonder though, if being physically apart from him family will be sufficient help to deal with the mental anguish I'm sure he will endure at leaving his family (he is the eldest son). Like your ex-gf, I wonder if by continuing the relationship my bf and I share, I am just digging a deeper hole for myself to climb out of.
For now though, I remain hopeful that he will be able to become his own person and become emotionally stable as a separate entity from his parents. Ideally, I hope for him to be able to maintain some sort of relationship with his parents and siblings allowing him to be able to take only the positive from those relationships.
I think he thinks that his parents will change their minds.
I don't know what else to say, you both seem to be in very similar situations. I hope someone is able to give you advice that will help aid your situation.
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1:38 pm
December 27, 2009
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Kratos
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Thank you for replying back. At first, I thought I was just talking to the wind on this forum since no one had responded. As for your Pakistani bf, the only thing that I can say is that he will have to find stability and growth in relationship to you. The questions that you have to ask yourself are: 1. Are you perfectly fine with being estranged from your in-laws? 2. Is your relationship strong enough to allow him the painful exodus from his family? 3. Are you personally commited and strong enough to help pull your bf from the muddied waters of self-destruction and guilt? Because understand that the primary M.O. of these cultures is guilt trips and threats of abandonment, condemnation, being socially ostracized, and even suicide on the part of the parents.
To get a clear picture, there have been nights, very recently, that I have considered fully submitting my application to the US Army Corp of Engineers to be stationed in either Baghdad or Tehron in Iraq. Understand that many of the guys who grow up in these cultures lack basic skills of self-sufficiency. I had to learn to take care of myself when I had graduated college, skills that most of my peers had learned while doing chores and being delegated responsibilities when they were younger.
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7:12 pm
December 27, 2009
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sjtp
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Hi Kratos,
I'm so sorry to hear how suffocated and tied down you feel within your family. I think this blog is proof that many White-Indian (or other intercultural) relationships do succeed, often with family support and sometimes without any family resistance. My fiance is Gujarati American also, and there was resistance from his parents at first but now I'm very comfortable with them, and most of the Indians (Gujarati and Telugu) I talked to about it said that typically if the marriage goes on the family will come around. At the same time, there's no way to be sure how things will go, and I have seen stories worse than my own on here, some with unhappy endings…so I've very hesitant to give advise beyond explaining my own experiences.
It sounds like you're feeling very trapped by not just your family but by Indian culture as well. I do believe that Indian families tend to have more guilt and pressure to conform to parents' wishes than White/American families, and I also believe many White American children feel trapped by their families, too – there are dysfunctional, inflexible families wherever you go. Another thought is that your parents have no motivation to change what is working for them – if pressuring you gets them results they are pleased with, they'll continue pressuring you. When parents get a child to agree to arranged marriages by bribing them when they bring home an "unsuitable" love match, they'll bribe the next child too. I'm not sure what's "working" for them in your brother's case…perhaps because they can distance themselves from uncomfortable adaptation/acceptance/changing beliefs while maintaining some relationship with him and not-so-subtly letting you know how high their expectations and consequences are. It's possible that they'd rather have their beliefs go unchanged than have relationships with their sons (their beliefs may conveniently allow them to place all blame on you both for diverging from their path, rather than sharing blame for not accepting your choices or for judging a daughter-in-law by prejudice rather than personal merits). That rejection is an incredibly tough thing to risk, even as an adult child. I have a difficult relationship with my father (different issues), so I certainly understand the tension of wanting to stand up but wanting to maintain the relationship.
You seem to be at the end of your rope and desperate for a way to change things…the military could very well be a good choice for you, but don't think it's your only option for changing things! When I've felt incredibly stuck within family situations, I've found going for a few counseling sessions is very helpful…it's different from venting to a friend, and a good counselor will help you see the situation more clearly so you can create a solution (rather than just telling you what you should do). And trying counseling doesn't mean you're "crazy" or "stupid" or "weak," even though those messages are out there…there's much more stigma about mental health than physical health, especially in the Indian community (e.g., my fiance and I don't mention to his family that we go to couples counseling, even though it's something I decided I wanted to do before marriage way before I met him, in case they worry that something's very wrong and think we're sure to divorce). If you (or anyone) would like to know more about what it's like to go to counseling, feel free to PM me.
I really hope you're able to find changes you can make that lessen this overwhelming burden for you.
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7:15 pm
December 27, 2009
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cakerbakergirl
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My bf is an engineer too and he studied aerospace engineering so you kind of remind me of him :) He is 30 years old and has lived in an apt for 1 yr only I think and that was when he was in university. The rest of his life has been spent living in his family's house. I think he has learned a lot of skills but only through his own wanting to (he is a great house cleaner and spends time learning how to fix things). It is tough though to have to learn all these things on your own and later in life, I feel for you! He has experienced all of the things that you mentioned above and more with the addition of a couple exagerated emergency room visits (fake heart attack). His mother has stressed herself so much that she has developed a bleeding ulcer.
As for my relationship with him, I am committed to helping him but I am unsure what exactly I can do to ease the way besides continuing to be patient with him (within reason) and offer suggestions. Because he still lives with his family, sometimes I feel like it is difficult for him to make a fair comparison between his family and myself, in the sense of having to choose between us. Since his mother makes her self so annoyingly intertwined in his life I think it must be very difficult for him to figure out what life would be like for him without her (and the rest of them) there all the time.
One question I have for you is about your elder brother. Do you discuss your challenges with him? Does he regret the loss of his parental family for his wife? If not, he may be able to help you come to grips with it. How had the severing of ties left him? I'd be very interested to hear.
Hopefully some of the guys in these interracial relationships will be able to comment here and help you out with some suggestions. There are some very lovely, helpful people on here who I am sure are just busy with the holidays. You'll definitely get more advice (not that I was able to offer any).
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9:08 am
December 28, 2009
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Kratos
| | Florida | |
| Member | posts 16 |
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If he is 30 years old, then he has come upon a very late juncture in his life that he has to face and face immediately. It is the same juncture that I am facing. Understand, that your role is primarily of support. You will have to be there as a pillar of support and strength. What you are doing right now is exactly what you should be doing, in terms of supporting him. To address your first question about my brother, I have started to discuss my challenges with him. He told me that it is probably time to start taking ownership of important life decisions like a new home purchase, or career change or of that sort. As far as I can tell, his relationship with my family wasn't all that close and his wife was actually the first one to suggest that he reopen the lines of communication.
The odd thing is that he didn't even talk to my parents until they, by chance, happen to meet at a friends house warming party. His wife then persuaded him to continue communications with my parents and to let my parents see their grandson. They eventually warmed up to the idea, ON THE CONSIDERATION THAT THEIR SECOND SON NOT GO THE SAME ROUTE AND THAT HE MARRY A PROPER INDIAN WOMAN. You see, the conditions of my parents coming to terms with my brother's "betrayal" was that at least they would get a second chance with seeing me married off to someone who probably doesn't have a bloody clue what the hell they are doing. It is indeed very sad, both in American and Indian cultures just how superficial and commercial marriages have become. Marriages are very sacred, sobering, and absolutely serious commitments that should only be made when BOTH parties are FULLY aware of all the challenges that come with it. Matter of fact, they ought to make it mandatory, if it isn't already, that in order to get legally married the man-and-wife-to-be take a very challenging and thought-provoking course on just what kind of challenges they will be facing. It makes no sense to get into these things just because the parents really want to see it happen. They can wish for it in one hand and pound sand with the other hand, and see which they accomplish first.
As for your final question, severing ties with my parents has, in my opinion, left him a bit stronger and more independent. It has helped him become a leader for his family. He and his wife and child have faced some rather hairy challenges in the past and they have overcome them, together. He had a townhouse in South Florida and he had to move up north. No one was able to buy it or rent it, so they had a very tough time getting a decent loan for a new mortgage where they live now. The townhouse still hasn't sold due to the horrible economic state that the real-estate market is in in South Florida. Yet, he is still persevering onwards. Matter of fact, they are expecting a new baby-girl next April! So, I hope that answers your questions. Day-by-day, I am heavily considering the idea of joining the US Army. It is my hope that I am trained in discipline, self-confidence, and the ability to stand-up so that when I stare off against my parents, their disgusting culture will subside and they will see that they face an immovable wall in front of them. I wish you and your bf the best.
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7:32 pm
January 1, 2010
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Gori Girl
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Kratos, it's clear that you put a lot of thought into writing this post, and I'm sorry for the delay in responding to it. I'm going to respond to your points as you make them, which might make what I'm writing a bit disjointed – but I'd rather respond now than take more time to write more succinctly.
I just wanted to say kudos and congrats to you and your husband. I am not sure how the both of you accomplished the insurmountable obstacle of not only meeting his parents but going through all that you have gone through. I myself, am a second generation Indian that was born here in the U.S. and am beginning to feel the weight and burden of being one who is ruled by traditions and lifelong dependencies that get me to ask the question “Who am I living life for?”
I truly do not believe that I have accomplished an insurmountable obstacle or have "gone through a lot" in being in a successful intercultural relationship with a good relationship to my husband's parents. I'm not saying this out of modesty or some pseudo-bragging, but because I see in your post someone who is in, for lack of a better term, a deep emotional trough – you're clearly struggling very deeply with your heritage/culture as it's been transmitted to you by your parents and family. I want to make it clear that, even if it doesn't seem possible or real to you now, not all Indian parents are behaving like yours, nor is Indian culture as dark as it appears to look like to you at the moment. The reality is that there are good aspects to any particular culture and bad aspects in every culture – basic, I know, but from your wording it seems like you might be failing to remember/see this point.
When my brother left, my parents ended up having this love/hate relationship in which they would embrace to see him and his family in the off chance that my brother's family would visit. But once he left, they would start talking negative about him and look upon him as a traitor and an outcast. Therefore, the role and responsibility of continuing the family name and the traditions, of which I have neither a clue or an appreciation for, were squarely planted upon me. I was only in middle school when this happened.
I'll echo the other posters in saying that, even if you haven't been very close to your brother in the past, you should consider getting in contact with him and discussing your problems in the same manner you have here. Of all of the people in the world, he's probably the one who has the greatest amount of knowledge of your situation (besides you), since you both grew up with your parents (even if he's much older).
The reason I am relating all of this to you, in case you were wondering why I am writing this to you, is because I am not sure if you have had a chance to see the ENTIRE picture of the Indian culture. Now, I am coming from a North Indian, Gujurati background. I am not sure if your husband's background is similar or not.
My husband is Bengali – but, again, I'd like to reassert that your experiences do not incorporate the entire picture of Indian culture, anymore than my husband's do. Nor are my particular experiences representative of American culture & the American experience. Both nations are multicultural by nature and MASSIVE – no one person (or one novel, I'd argue) can represent them fairly.
When I turned 25, my parents really turned up the heat in terms of subtly hinting at me to get married. The proposition of arranged marriages is one of almost unbearable pain and uncertainty. The traditions and ceremonies that are wrapped up in being part of a very traditionalist and classist family are ones of outward facades and appearances with absolutely no substance. It is founded upon pillars of pride, in one's identity and one's misplaced security in how they fit in in their own family. Because my parents are now the eldest members in my family, they carry a high modicum of respect that it falls upon me to uphold that respect. It may sound very noble and awesome, but it truly isn't. You have to understand that the darker side of the Indian culture is complete and total submission to one's parents, above all allegiances that are made to either one's country or one's own personal honor system. It leads to emotional and psychological servitude and slavery.
Clearly, if you're dead set against an arranged marriage, then you shouldn't get one. End of story. Have you talked to your parents at all about your feelings on this matter? Hinted? I ask because, frankly, I think the longer you hold out on your parents about your feelings, the worse the situation will be when they eventually learn that you do not plan to live up to their expectations.
I expect such a conversation – whenever it occurs – is going to be tremendously difficult for you, given what you write about your parents. Frankly, I'm not capable or qualified to give you advice about this situation – but there are a number of books written to help out people in situations like yours. A few of the "classic" ones that I know are:
You can find other books with similar themes on Amazon, although I was unable to find a book specifically written for bridging the cultural gap that often exists between immigrant parents and their children.
The question is how in the world did you really reach out to your husband's parents? Matter of fact, how in the world did he convince them to even listen to him?
Frankly, my husband's parents don't sound much like your description of your parents. While Aditya's parents were initially a bit concerned about their son dating (and marrying) an American woman, they accepted me after meeting and getting to know me. Baba and Maa are, first and foremost, concerned with their children's happiness. If you'd like to read a bit about their feelings on the matter, I actually interviewed them the last time they were staying with us, and posted a transcript here and here. And I blogged about my first meeting with them here.
Now, I'm sure hearing that is not helpful to you at all – and I'm truly sorry to hear about how your parents' attitude has affected your relationship(s). I think that you're doing the right thing in holding off on having another relationship until you've sorted out the issue. If you're interested in a military career (or short-term stint of service), that might be a great way to gain some distance, both mental and physical, from your parents. (Do make sure that you're doing it because you're actually interested in the work, however, not just as an escape route.)
Again, however, I want to restate that, while I completely understand that your experiences with your parents and local community may have led you to feel and write things like:
May your love for your significant other endure and win out against this century-old prideful and vain culture and all of its rules, castes, and classist and elitist paradigms and philosophies. In response to your posting on what traditions should be kept, to that I say that some things, like the whole of the Indian culture, should be just buried with the past. As for what the future holds, I leave that in Jesus' hands. I am positive and hopeful that at least this circle of servitude and slavery known as the Indian culture will die with me, as I'm most sincerely positive I would not want to sire a family and enslave them to this legacy of pain and guilt.
This view is just as distorted as one that says that all of Indian culture is colorful silks, close, loving family, and delicious food. If you feel the need to remove all of Indian culture from your life, that's completely understandable, given your difficult experiences. But please don't paint a culture of a billion plus people with the same brush.
Finally, I'm not sure how much this will help, but I have a list of non-fiction books on Indian Americans and the South Asian immigrant experience that might contain some personal stories or other information to help you. Sadly, it is very common for there to be significant friction between 1st generation immigrants and their children who have been raised in the US – you might be able to find some books in the list that describe other 2nd generation's problems, and their solutions to them.
Finally, keep in mind the following poem by Kahil Gibran, which I think perfectly represents the relationship that should exist between children and their parents. Use it as a sanity check when your parents' demands threaten to overwhelm you.
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
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9:26 pm
January 1, 2010
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cakerbakergirl
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Gori Girl-
That poem is perfection… my goodness it sums up exactly how I feel about the parent/child relationship.
I sent it to my bf and I am also going to send him the list of books you posted above. It hadn't occurred to me that he try reading that type of self help book but I think that at this point in the game, they're exactly what he needs.
So thanks :)
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9:39 pm
January 1, 2010
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Kratos
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| Member | posts 16 |
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Hey GG,
Thanks for taking the time out to respond to my post. I didn't mean to paint a broad brush, but I just wanted to make sure that folks were seeing the whole picture. There are intercultural blogs out there that paint a picture of lovely flowers and smiles with regards to the Indian culture, without properly dissecting the negative aspects of it. I'm not saying your blog is such a blog. Thank you for the suggestions of the non-fiction. I will have to invest and investigate these books and see if there is a possibility of a diplomatic resolution, though I have tried that route. They continually use their age as their largest bargaining chip in reasoning that I am not old enough to make such important decisions. Even at this age, I am fighting a losing battle to get them to understand that I am no longer their "little boy." Such simplistic and plebian thinking is not only illogical, but rather unhealthy. Understand, that it is one of the major reasons why I am firmly determined in NEVER starting a family. I have begun setting up countermeasures to ensure that I wouldn't make such a foolhardy move. I don't even think that time itself will ebb away at their toughened hearts towards any kind of intercultural relationship so that they become more understanding. The situation, as it stands, is that I have chosen a much harder and painful path of standing alone, for my entire life. It may sound like brash young thinking, but I am dead set on it. It just seems as though there are way too many undetermined parameters and really no way to mitigate potentially dangerous risks when it comes to either an arranged relationships (i.e. "assisted relationships" as the new generation of blind Indians like to call, since they think that it is a more politically correct term) or a serious "love-based" intercultural relationship.
As for what my brother told me, he did let me know that there are some really good centers for counseling. I shall definitely look into them. As for being candid and forthcoming with my parents, I have tried all that I possibly could and it is to completely no avail. Their opinion is that the Indian culture is the best thing since sliced bread. I sincerely beg to differ, based on what I have seen. This past week has been nothing but guilt trips over guilt trips. To be honest, the only feelings I have now when I come home are those of worthlessness, self-loathing and loads upon loads of guilt and powerlessness. I am not trying to set up some sort of pity-party, I am only relaying honest truth. Any thoughts?
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8:47 pm
January 11, 2010
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Mia
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Kratos,
I'm sorry for your current state. There is nothing more disheartening than realizing or believing that you will live a life without the support of your family. For Asians (as I am one) family and family support is everything. It is engrained in our heads at birth to have respect and love for our parents, but mostly to honor them. Growing up I too was told that "honoring thy parents" meant bending to their every will. We both know that is isn't the true. That we can honor our parents by being our best selves. To them this idea is almost ludicrous and borders on disrespectful, but it doesn't mean they are bad people or that they don't love us. It just means that they grew up in a time and world from us. And it is our job to slowly and gently show them the new world they chose to raise us in and how wonderful it can be. I'm not saying that it is easy, or that changing family dynamics happens overnight, but it can happen, because despite everything they love us and only want what best for us. They brought us into this world, gave us everything we needed and desired, so that we would have an easier and better life. All was done with love. Now, I'm not saying that I completely understand your plight or am I trying to minimize how difficult it is, I'm just trying to give you a different point of view. Let me share a little of my story with you.
When I was younger I always thought that my parents were absolutely insane, and completely over dramatic. Constantly threatening to kill themselves (especially my mother), telling me that they wish they never brought me hear, and that if we were back home I wouldn't be such a disappointment or so disrespectful. It like WWIII at my house at times. My parents battling it out with myself/siblings over little things, everything was a yelling match of grand proportions. Things like going out with guys friends, being seen in public with a person of the opposite sex, wanting to dress a certain way, not making it for dinner, the list goes on and on. The battle always ended the same way, my mother was left crying, my father was so angry I swear he would have a heart attack, and myself/siblings half crying half pissed off and threatening to runaway. Clearly not the picture of perfection. But with time I learned to deal with them in a different way. I realized that they were so scared of us losing our way that they desperately held on to us for dear life. I decided that instead of fighting with them I would give them some insight into my world, and take more of an interest in theirs. I'm not saying we didn't fight or we don't still, but this approach has worked out better. Conflicts get resolved more easily and readily. Additionally, I've even gotten closer with them and have a better understanding of my culture and self. It took many years probably better to say a decade, but we are at a better place. And we did it without losing each other.
Hope this helps. Goodluck.
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