Gori Girl

I am gone to be dead honest with you: I think there is a reason why you say "because he is black and any critique I make of behaviors/lifestyles/culture on his side are taken as very offensive." I think you have internalized racist attitudes against black Americans (maybe your critiques ARE offensive. he is the right kind of black person and his family are the wrong kind, he feels comfortable in (black???) settings that you don't feel comfortable in, etc.). You really need to hash out how you feel about black people and understand where these ideas have come from. We all have our own racial and class prejudices, we are socialized in a racist society (no matter where we grew up, since all societies are racist), and we all have to consciously take an interest in self-analyzing and 'unlearning' our racist training if we want to be the best human beings and to live up to our as of yet unrealized American ideals of an egalitarian society. In the US, black Americans face a huge amount of prejudice, and it isn't always open or overt in such a way that non-black people immediately recognize, but our upbringing with media messages, messages from family, from the educational system, etc. that black Americans and black American culture are somehow low class and inferior really affects everyone, black and non-black alike. I know no one likes to think of themselves as prejudiced. But in your post, I do see negativity towards black people. I am from the same culture as you, and I fight with the same trained racist thinking towards blacks and other minorities and people of color myself. And it doesn't matter if you have close black friends, a black lover, or even black or biracial-black children, you can still cling on to the same attitudes without realizing it. Some of the questions you pose, like about the future religion of your kids, etc., would be an issue with any partner who was not of the same exact background with you. But most of what I see here is doubts about your partner's blackness. This is just as much about blackness as it is about class because of the way that race and class intersect.

You wouldn't be the first person in an interracial relationship to (perhaps subconscously) harbor racist attitudes or prejudice towards a loved one who is a racial Other (I have caught myself doing this, too). People can be in a very happy interracial marriage for years and still essentially be racist towards their partner's race/culture…which is not a good thing, but it is just a fact.

Anyhow, no one likes to be told that they are prejudiced, I don't mean to offend you. I am just calling it as I see it here. I think if you really love this guy, you can commit to unlearning your prejudices…all of us should, and your partner and any future biracial-black children deserve that you address this. But how to do that? I think there is a lot of support on the net for people who are interested in committing to unlearning our racism. There are a lot of anti-racism websites, for black American issues there are racially politicized black blogs, etc., that breakdown racism very well, there are books, etc. I also feel there is value in seeking out couples who are 'like you'. Racial-cultural differences are real, and it can help to know other people who are going thru the same thing in terms of some of "what about our kids, what about religion," stuff you posed. There are black/desi-American couples online, I can think of a couple of bloggers, etc.

Hi there,

I definitely feel your pain. I'll be honest, I only read the original post and very quickly skimmed what's been written since then, so sorry if I repeat some advice you've already been given.

I'm a white girl in a very serious relationship with an Indian guy (you might have seen my 'can I handle this?' post) and one thing he and I have done is to sit together and purposely discuss the stereotypes we've heard about one another's culture so that we can address them. (For example: he had heard/believed that basically all Americans will get divorced so it's a bad idea to marry an American, and I was worried that the moment we get married, he'd have his parents come live with us.) These were both big concerns for each of us, and, as it turns out, something we could talk about and feel better about. But we did need to have the open, honest communication.

Shortly after returning from our trip to India to meet his parents this past January I reached the conclusion that I needed to be brave and say even the worst things I was thinking – the things I was worried he might be sensitive to - or else I was never going to know what to do. Unless I could say everything that scared me, even if it might come out as sounding like it was 'politically incorrect,' then Ajit wouldn't have a chance to address my fears, and I would either be going into an engagement having no idea of whether or not the things that scared me were going to be real issues or breaking up the best relationship I ever had for maybe no reason! You don't want to move into an engagement or marriage in the dark, you know? Or breakup without knowing if you might have been able to move forward. So it's good to get everything out on the table.

Granted, even if you do this, some surprises may still come up in the future, and there will be challenges. But at least you'll have a good foundation that shows you you can talk about anything. During our 'tough talks,' there were rocky moments – but now at least I really know that if we could talk about all we talked about, some of the touchiest race/religion/culture subjects imaginable, we can talk about everything! Which gave me more confidence in us.

Best of luck – let me know how you do!

New York Love Story

Post edited 5:53 am – May 4, 2010 by luckyfatima

brown1282: I think you are a big step ahead since you already consciously think of racism…I do get where you are coming from. I know your partner has his own barrage of prejudices, not only against white people but probably about Indians, too. That is a given. But since an issue here is his feeling defensive about blackness and stuff with his family, hashing out your own prejudices is really important.  I think any black American person in a relationship with a non-black person can make themselves vulnerable to prejudice against blacks that can be there in their partner's mind. But that shouldn't be enough reason to NOT be with non-black people if the non-black half is willing to "unlearn."

Look, I am not black, I am not trying to be a champion defender of blackness here, I but I want to look at this example you have in another  way:

One example I have is from one time when we went to stay with his mom for a weekend and I met many of his cousins for the first time. None of them have a father figure; in fact no one in his family is married, rather they have had children with multiple people (and these kids have gone on to have gotten pregnant as teenagers and had children without husbands as well) and this is considered the norm in the area he grew up. I am not saying this makes them bad people, I simply feel this is a family/reproductive pattern that we want to move away from. When I mentioned my concern to him about what we'd want to teach our children about sex, relationships, and families, he took this to mean that I was judging his background, and hence, the topic has not really come up since.

Your guy's family does come from a non-traditional family structure by mainstream American standards, and a family structure which has come to be associated with black-Americans. I would be sensitive, too, if this were my family background, and since this type of broken family has come to be associated with African Americans, touching on the topic has racial undertones. You acknowledge this in your response above further down. I say this: yep it sounds like a messed up family. Another messed up black family. Hmmm. But…why is it that this type of family is tied to blackness? What history is behind this? What structures of racism contributed to the growth in prevalence of this type of family? What do black social activists say about this type of family structure and ways to heal black communities from these issues? This is not the way anyone wants to be, this is people coming out a certain way as a result of a lot of environmental factors, structural racism causing most of them. This is people getting stuck in a rut that, due to racism, they cannot easily get out of. His family members or he might not especially appreciate you (or me) analyzing them like this because we are not black and it is kind of objectifying, but I think it is important for you to see their situation as part of a bigger picture, and also because once you acknowledge how broken families prevalent in black American communities are a symptom of racism, you can understand his family just a little bit more. Now, your guy is a special case because he has risen out of this situation. But you feel that his family's ways will affect you and your children. One could say that perhaps a man who grew up without a father and in a place with a lack of strong male role models is doomed to be a bad partner and a bad father, and may abandon his role of spouse and father. Will his siblings, cousins, and parents be bad role models for your kids, too? You can see from your own doubts how the whole situation is very systematic and you don't want the system to hurt you or your future children. Well, I think you guys won't be in the same circumstantial environment that perpetuates broken families. So you shouldn't worry about this. And your potential relatives in-law can and should be important people in your kids' lives and you shouldn't worry about the details of their lives and their personal business. I think if your individual family unit is strong, that's the most important thing.  It is about the world you create, as you put it, for you and your spouse. Worlds can shift, be separate for sometime, have spaces that overlap, have occasional collisions. That is natural. You should just try your best to understand your potential future in-laws and try to rise above judgemental thoughts. It is too easy to type all of this and feel it sounds good, but then be in a real situation of collision like what you mentioned about your partner's friends leaving your gathering to go to someplace that they liked better. I would be offended by that, too. There are real cultural differences, and sometimes you guys are just gonna have situations like this. I definately think your partner's friends should have stuck around just out of politeness and it is not a good enough reason to leave just because they don't like the place since it is just a one-off event. But I think there are issues too of black people liking to be in safe black spaces when they socialize (safe to be themselves, safe to enjoy their own culture, safe from non-black racially tinged judgement, etc)…and it is not really a parallel to compare it to your non-black friends being uncomfortable in a black space because when black people step outside of black spaces they are always vulnerable to being socially unsafe, whereas your non-black friends have a lot more safe social space in the world…anywayz…I still think it was rude to just leave like that and they could have been good sports for just one evening, but those are my thoughts.

I'll have to come back in a little while to link those sites I mentioned…I like Stuff White People Do, the focus is on white privilege issues but issues of blackness in America, and also cross people of color prejudices and the like. Most of the regular commenters are people of color, there is as much to learn and think about from  reading the comments  as well as the posts. Also Racialicious which focuses on race in pop culture. These are my two fave anti-racist sites. On the Stuff White People Do sidebar there are links to various anti-racist bloggers including some that focus on black issues. A  blog I have seen that focus on black American and desi relationship is: Blindian (GG links it in her sidebar)…there was a blog by a Black American Muslim convert married to a Pakistani guy but I can't seem to find it right now.

Post edited 2:51 am – May 7, 2010 by ScorpioQueen09

I've been lurking for a while but this thread made me want to post for the first time.  I'm an African-American woman and am interested in Indian-Black relationships for many things that you discussed in your original post brown1282.  No matter what relationships and marriages go through hard times. 

One thing I want to caution you about is to not assume the differences between you and your boyfriend when it comes to family is unique to all African-Americans.  Stereotypes in the media really have an affect on how racial groups are percieved.  I'll be the first to admit the black community has a problem with out-of-wedlock births but it's not the case with everyone nor is it acceptable in evry family.  I'm one of three daughters and both my parents (especially my dad) have made it clear it will not happen in this family.  My parents have been married for nearly 30 years and have given my sisters and me an excellent example of a successful marriage.   They've tried to protect me from a lot of the discrimination they went through.  Education is also very important in my family.  My dad's a surgeon, my mom's a psychotherapist with two Masters and I'm about to finish my Masters before going to law school.  I mention all this to say the differences between you are not because of your race, but different backgrounds/childhoods.  I've always had friends of different races and nationalities because I relate to people who share the same beliefs I do about education and family. 

I will admit, the incident you described about throwing your boyfriend a party at a club and most everyone walking out because there weren't enough black people around caught my attention because just as it seems you may have some generalized feelings about African-Americans, I know African-Americans do this too.  We can be some of the most narrow-minded and prejudiced people when it comes to other cultures.  It was very rude of your boyfriend's friends to act the way they did, especially after you went through so much trouble.

As for religion, I grew up in a multi-faith family.  My mom's Muslim, my dad is Protestant Christian and I became Catholic when I was 12.  What's important to my family is belief in a higher power.  I understand how religion is an issue for some people, but I believe when it comes to raising children the best solution is to expose them to both faiths and let them decide.  Catholic schools are good for this.  They teach children about multiple faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc.) while emphasizing the need to have one.

I agree with luckyfatima you need to examine your own feelings about black Americans and work to get through them.  You should also discuss the cultural differences between you when it comes to expectations of a husband, wife, how you'll raise kids, religion etc.  You're having a hard time imagining a future with him because you haven't worked these issues out.  They'd affect any relationship whether intercultural or not.  I'll echo the recommendation to read the Blindian blog.  I'm a regular reader and its excellent.  I hope this helps and you can work through your worries.

Much love!