Gori Girl

Hi to all of the wonderful bloggers and blog commenters that I have been lurking on for the past few weeks after finally finding people like me online :)

Background:

I'm a Canadian, caucasian and Christian. A guy messaged me on an online dating at the end of Apr 09 and we have been happily together ever since. Sounds easy, right?  He is Pakistani Canadian and Muslim.  I guess we had both dated enough people already (he is 29 and I am 26) to realise during or after our first date that we may have met "The One".  He is the first person that I have ever met / dated who meets all of my criteria… I have a long list of traits that I am looking for in my future husband and I have been so thankful to God for meeting him.  He has been in Canada since he was in grade 8 and prior to that, he spent his childhood growing up in Saudi Arabia (his parents were there for work). He and I have identical and/or complimentary values, despite the fact that we are different religions. So of you may know that Islam is very similar to Christianity and Judaism and that by Islamic law, there is nothing forbidding him from marrying me (ie Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian or Jewish women). 

Ever since we started dating and he told me that if we stayed together, he was obligated as a practicing Muslim to raise his children as muslims, I have spent nearly every single night, online reading about his religion as well as his culture. My landlords who are fairly close to me (I live in their basement) are Pakistani Muslim immigrants as well so even before my bf came in to the picture, I was learning about how they at least live out their culture and religion. 

My bf has never hid his relationship with me from his parents, though I am sure he doesn't call me his gf specifically but that word means slutlike relationship to his parents. He has told them that he has been getting to know me (a white girl) and that he really liked me, etc etc. At first his mum said not to worry that when the time came, she'd listen to more details.  Then she started implying that she like to meet me eventually.

This is where it gets complicated. I work for a company that makes Halal (islamically permissible food) so my company attends Muslim events. I heard about a big event and thought it would be a good time to learn more about Islam so when I told a close (also Muslim) colleague that I would be attending the event, he said that he could get me free tickets. This Muslim colleague has heard a fair share about my dating relationship with my bf because I would ask him lots of questions about Islam etc.  He knows who I am at heart (and thus approved of me and lifestyle being conducive to eventually marrying a Muslim).  So back to the event, my bf and I were planning to attend and then the day before (or maybe it was the day of the event), he told me that his mum and elder sister would also be there and that we could meet. So, we did. It all happened in front of my company's food stall at the event so we all dined on my company's food for free (compliments of my working there- the other event goers had to pay).  My colleague's family happened to walk by at the same time that we were there so there ended up being this large group of Pakistani people which caused everyone to start speaking Urdu.  My bf knows how rude I think it is when people who are capable of speaking English choose to speak another language that not everyone speaks but as much as he tried to rein in people and speak only in English, most of the convo was in Urdu and beyond me understanding the numbers 1-20, I knew no other vocab so was unable to communicate beyond  smiling and serving food.

Eventually, my bf and I went to his mother's vehicle to fetch her bag and while we were gone, she started interogating my colleague and his wife (who only knew of my through her husband and a quick hello when she popped in to see him once at work). She (bf's mother) was asking all kinds of questions about what they knew about me and about my bf's and my relationship. My colleague, trying to help said he listed my merits and that he would approve of me as being a member of his family (hypothetically) etc etc.

After that event, the next day in fact, my bf's mother started going crazy. She was angry that he was with me and said that he had to end it. She had not witnessed anything about me that she disliked at the event, nor had my colleague said nothing but positive things about me but still I wasn't good enough.  At first she said that because I wasn't muslim, it couldn't work.  Then my bf came back with the Quoronic verses stating that she was wrong so then she started spewing out all of the white stereotypes easterners have of us westerners, things like that we party (I don't), divorce easily (some do but I have no divorce in my family at all… strange but true). At the same time, my bf's eldest sister was put in to an arranged marriage (not a forced one but more like an assisted courtship) with a Pakistani man who turned out to be the biggest loser of all and so now, after having one child together the couple is getting a divorce.  At first when that marriage started to dissolve, my bf's parents stated that they would never perform or assist in arranged marriages for their remaining two children (2 sons, of which my bf is the eldest). 

Everytime my bf would leave his house his mother would call to see where he was and when he was returning home. She strongly discouraged seeing me. Eventually, his Dad got involved, threatening to disown him if we wanted to get married.  Now it is Ramadan. I was out of the province visiting my own family for the first 10 days of Ramadan so there was no issue about him seeing me.  Then I got back and have seen him 4 times (2 were brief as he sneaked out of the house) and one was for an Iftar dinner (that I was attending through work). He was supposed to come visit me tonight and I was going to make an Iftar dinner for us (though I'm not fasting) and he just texted me saying he had another big fight with his rents and that he couldnt make it.

My bf lives at home with his parents, as all of the Pakistani immigrant children do here in Toronto. Consequently, his mother can keep extra close tabs on her grown man son. He also recently got laid off (darn recession) so he is under a lot of stress from that. His sister that is going through the divorce also lives at home with her son (the father has been absent from the son's entire life). The sister's drama is really dragging the family down with everyone being really upset and thinking that her son (my bf's nephew) is going to have his life ruined etc.. So with all of that going on in bf's life, our relationship and the constant biweekly huge screaming crying fights that he ends up having with his parents is further dragging him down.  See his parents will not even meet me, to see that their fears are beyond unfounded. My bf and I are trying to just pray and wait it out, that gentle persistence from him to them, stating that he loves his parents but that he is not going to break up with me (or however he words it to them) will help it ease but its just not getting better. I know it has technically only been 2.5 months of this but that is still alot of time and frankly I know how stressed it is making me so I cannot even imagine how it is making him feel. Also, my parents have been great about  me dating my bf, very openminded, never bringing up stereotypes etc. I tell them most everything so they know that I am not just falling in to a life with him and that he and I both are doing a lot of discussing and reading (well more reading on my part since he has been in my culture long enough to get it). The problem is that it is very insulting for them to hear about how his parents are reacting to my bf being with me. I really am a good girl (what ever that means) and my parents are hugely proud of me. They think that a good would be more than lucky to have me so for them to see me practically having to fight to prove my worth (well my bf does it more than I have to), is just very difficult for them to understand.

So, basically now that you know my story, could you all please give me your honest opinions on the whole situation?  Is it worth stressing the pants off my bf for?  Do parents as crazy behaving as this ever come around? 

I have neglected to say much about how I feel about him but I will now, I love him to death and honestly (in a rational not lovesick way) cannot imagine life without him. That being said, aside from his family's drama over me, they are a wonderful support system to him and he loves them dearly, hence the dilemna.

Does anyone know of anything that I should say or do?  I have offered to send baked goods home with him but he thought that was a bad idea. I have begged and pleaded for a real meeting, heck interview if you will, with them because I am that confident that they will not find anything legit wrong with me but no, they just won't budge.

He has cancelled at least 7 dates with me over the past 3 months… that really is a lot when we don't see each other often as it is. In my past relationships, I saw my bfs almost every day but with him, we are lucky to see each other 2 evenings a week so when they frequently get cancelled because his parents throw a fit OR give him crazy amounts of household jobs to do, it starts getting in the way of him and I truly getting to know each other. Am I being walked all over for putting up with the cancelled dates without freaking out myself?  It really hurts me, even though I know that it is not due to him not wanting to see me (he also gets really upset when he can't come over) but still, it sucks…

Please oh experienced souls out there, share your wise counsel. Thanks :)

Hi cakerbakergirl,

I just read your post and wanted to write a few things to see if that helps you at all.

First, be calm and hang in there.  I know this sounds absolutely and utter mad, but trust me.  Being calm is your first priority.  Trying to remain upbeat is your second.  You're BF already has an amazing amount of stress on his shoulders right now.  You being upbeat and positive for him will help him tremendously!  See, you are living in a supportive and positive atmosphere…without having a job, he has no where to escape to.  If you can text each other, then continue to do so.  Send him happy messages often.  Do everything you can to make him smile or laugh even if you are crying on the other end.  Talk to him in a positive, non-demanding way.  Don't add to his stress, give him advice and encouragement but do not let your frustrations show (well….within reason of course ;) )

Second…I know 2 1/2 months seems a very long time, but I'm here to tell you that it can (and possibly WILL) last longer!  Bear and I lived through 8 months of it and it didn't stop until two weeks before our wedding.  I truly believe that if his Bhabhi hadn't of stepped in and forced her husband to help settle this issue…his parents may have continued their unhappiness till months or years after our marriage.  I've read other blogs where this went on for more than a year.  I'm not telling you this to make you more depressed or anxious, I'm telling you this to give you perspective.  You can't put western time lines onto a desi family.  You just can't.  They don't work that way when it comes to their muslim/hindu son marrying or being seriously involved with a white christian girl.  See, when the parents start trying to go off religion what they are actually thinking of is tradition.  Neither Muslim nor Hindu religions mention anything about marrying outside of your religion, just that you don't marry someone not worthy of you.  Over the centuries….tradition has made this be not out of your religion/caste/etc.

Third, this is absolutely NOTHING that you can do to change their attitude and resolve for now.  This is up to your BF.  He has to get them to the point of getting to know you.  My husband's family finally broke down and wrote me an email about a month out from our wedding asking me to end it with their son.  They listed all their concerns and why they thought the marriage was wrong/bad a idea.  I responded back answering all their concerns and that I could not break my promise to their son or to God by NOT marrying him.  Eventually they respected me more for my resolve in disobeying them respectfully than anything else.  (IMO)

Fourth, when the time comes, you will have a chance to show them just how good you are.  Until then, don't worry or fret over it.  Seriously, there isn't much you can do directly.  BUT….you can work through your BF.  Give him things to say, help him with advice, be his support and continue to love him.  

I too hope things work out ok for you…being in your shoes a bit, I know what you're going through.  Don't worry…we are all here for you.

Take care and write back whenever you need us.  ;) 

I am back with an update. Today, my bf came over and broke up with me.  He said that he could not handle losing his family and that he vows to never ever marry. He told his parents that he would marry me or nobody- to which they choose nobody (probably assuming that he will cave and pick a different girl… as if it is that easy. He has sided with them despite the fact that his parents hate me because I am white and do not care about his happiness, only how they look to other pakistani community members.  He has decided that the best solution is to set me free while I "still have time to find someone else". I feel like it is like when someone who has been abused for a long time suddenly feels a strange affiation to that person- you know when that happens? He has decided that he will stay single, live in a strange situation of never marrying and looking like the gay single uncle, all because he thinks his life is cursed.

I am devastated. Please pray for us.

Post edited 1:31 pm – October 14, 2009 by cakerbakergirl

Last night, his mother and father got in an argument, blaming each other for raising their son in a way conducive to wanting to marry a gori (ie ending up being a bad son).

His mother got so upset that she had a panic attack and had to be taken to the hospital.  They found out her heart is weak through an EKG.  Now his father and siblings are alienating him even more for “hurting and almost killing his mother” (thats what they believe). Even though he has never stopped loving his parents and was the one to take his mother to the hospital and was with her all night long (well till 4am when she was released), still they

I have reassured him that it is not his fault that his mother had a panic attack, that she is choosing to act out in the way she is OR she has a mental imbalance and needs anti-depressants but regardless it isn't his fault but still, he thinks he almost killed his mother and that in turn is killing him.

He called his uncle who lives about 10 hrs away and he invited him to go stay with his family for a week which will be good so that my poor bf can rejuvenate his weary mind but still, has anyone else dealt with angry mother-in-laws who faked/had panic attacks over something like this?  It seems (based on internet accounts) that many Pakistani/Indian mothers have panic attacks over the thought of their children marrying a white person.

Ugh.

Thanks Gori Girl. I understand what you mean about only sensational stories sometimes being news worthy. His mum had a second dr's appt and was put on an antidepressant as well as was given anxiety meds. Unfortunately, his siblings and father, being unacquainted with mental illness believe that it is all my bf's fault that his mom needs to be on meds. I hope the meds will at least slightly sedate her reaction to everything.

Now, my bf is lost and consequently barely talks to me. I hear from him once a day, if I'm lucky, via an email. He cancelled our date for tonight and doesn't want to get together at all. I really wish he would let me give him a hug at least. It kinda makes me feel bad that he is not reaching out to me while he is stressing. Then I feel selfish for feeling like that.  Ughhh. Do you guys think its a bad sign that he is closing up his emotions and not really communicating to me?

SSSD- your situation does sound familiar, unfortunately for us both :(  How has it been going lately? My bf too, alludes to strange things such as being so lucky to have me yet telling me to break up with him because he doesn't want to hurt me.  I guess thats not strange per se but I just wish I could help him more and know that I will be fine, enduring this, as long as I know that he won't break up with me again.

Hugs to everyone.

Hi SSSD,

I did end up seeing my bf, after not seeing or barely talking to him for about a week. It was hard… When he came to finally see me, he was perfect though. Calm, happy and bearing a gift as a token of apology for leaving me in the lurch for that week. He needed time alone to do sort his thoughts which is fine. I explained to him that next time he just needs to warn me in advance so that I know what is going on.

While he was gone, his uncle, with whom he was staying, advised him to go undercover with me for the time being. He suggested that my bf's parents wouldn't let up their craziness so the best thing to do for my bf's sake was to tell him parents that I dumped him, due to the drama and so he did. He isn't getting harrassed on a daily basis anymore but his parents are still resentful and his dad is giving him the cold shoulder. He has about one fight a week now with them. Mostly because he said that if they weren't going to let him choose his own wife then he would marry noone (a threat to scare them).  Because of this, they get angry because they think it will make them look bad as parents if their eldest son never marries.

Yesterday, his family went to another family's house. Somehow a massive fight ensued and I haven't actually heard from my bf (except for a short email this morning) because he is so upset. I have no fight details as he all he told me was that there was a lot of crying and yelling involved in the fight and that he would talk to me later. hmmm later is now?  Have any of you guys ever experienced bfs who don't talk to them when they're upset about other things? I wish he'd talk to me when he's upset. I know he doesn't want to hurt me but it stresses me more when I don't know what the heck is going on.

SSSD- About your bf, why in the world does he tell you that he doesn't love you?  Are you still together now? Is he too young to be in a serious relationship?

I hope you have good news :)

Thank you for your kind words SJTP. I need to hear stories with positive outcomes to stay strong. I am very happy that yours worked out :)

I actually have more to add to the story about my bf. On Sunday, he cancelled a date with me (as I mentioned in my last post). I didn't hear from him that night  or the next day (he wasn't answering my calls or email), so I emailed him, worrying that his family had committed some sort of honor crime and told him that I would report his family to the police under suspect of violence if I didn't hear from him.

He wrote back saying that his family wouldn't hurt him etc etc, that he just had to spend time with them to smooth things over. I, meanwhile, and thoroughly confused why he cannot love him family and myself at the same time. He can still talk to me in the least, right?  On Monday night, I woke up in the middle of the night, so upset and emailed him a stern email detailing how his behavior was unacceptable etc. He finally wrote back on Tuesday saying that on Sunday night night, his mother starting vomiting up blood and that she had been in the hospital ever since, hence his disappearing act. His father and siblings blamed it all on him, saying he was going to kill her for sure this time with the stress he was placing on her. His mother is in her early 50s but obese, weak heart, inactive and doesn't do a thing to take care of herself.  I keep reminding my bf that her poor health is her own fault and he knows that but it is easier for his family to blame him than to face the reality that mumsy is responsible for her own health problems.After calling him like 20 times on Tuesday, he finally answered the phone (whilst hiding in his bathroom) and told me that he thinks he cannot talk to me while this is going on etc etc because he is never alone and he is overwhelmed etc etc.He could barely talk, he was crying so much. He said I need to break up with him because its not fair to me and because his family is a messed up disaster. My mother on the other hand, is very angry with him because of how he is handling this (in that he can control how he acts towards me but he is playing the victim card). She thinks I should run as fast as I can away from him and his family.

My question to all of you non-partial readers is, if I agree with my bf and allow him to basically not talk to me for a while until his mother is out of the hospital for a while, is that putting myself down and making a doormat of myself or is that me being generous with him? I really love him and when we are together, life is perfect. Last Thursday, we were discussing engagement rings. I have spent so much time investing in our relationship, from learning Urdu, to reading nearly daily about Islam, Pakistan, etc that to just drop it all now, seems horrible. Though on the other hand, I am concerned that I am setting a precident with him in that I always am generous and if he has a fight with his parents one day, and wants to cancel with me, I always agree without any drama. I am concerned that perhaps, I have been too easygoing and now the standard is that he puts his family first because his gf will "understand".

I am soooo confused.  Oh and another question, do you think it is a bad sign that when his mum was admitted to the hospital that his first instinct wasn't to call me? Basically, had I not sent him my angry email I still might not know about his mother being iin the hospital.

Please offer me your advise :(

HI There

  i came here after a long time ,,, firstly i would like to thank gorigirl for making a forum to help others ,,,

i read the whole thread ,,, being a Pakistani Muslim guy i thought theres something that i should tell you which i think are right

its what i think you dont have to agree with me

the thing is you shouldnt worry if he doesnt tells you the problems in his family or updates you ,, its because your bf thinks that he will make you more stressed etc ,,,

one thing you should remember about pakistanis is that they try to follow their culture more then their reiligion ,,,  and from my experience i can bet that his family is bearly religious ,, so its all cultrual stuff that  they are "afraid" of his relationship with you ,,,,

secondly i think the problem with his mother is not all from his side its bcoz desi women are not treated well by their husbands ,,, many of desi men treat their wives as a servent , dont know why ,, the funny thing is that its against islam ,,, but its kinda cultrual thing, they are afraid of being called "controlled by the wife"

so from that most of the desi women are stressed whole their life ,,, so it all adds up from the begning to end ,,, i think your bf is doing the best in the present situation ,,,   and if your bf turned out this way is not only his mothers fault its more of his dads fault and i think if anything happend to his mother that would also be his father's fault ,,,, you should not force him in things in the present situation ,,, you should always try to show more support from your side ,,, in all they ways ,,, dont force him to talk to you if he is not in the situation ,,,

i think if you dont lose each other now you guys have a batter chance to be with each other for whole life ,,,

SSSD- What you say about your bf not being young but scared sounds logical. And yes, I do feel better sharing everything with you guys. It definitely helps. We are all in very unusual situations.

Uncle Tom- Thanks for a male perspective. Its an interesting angle to look at it that maybe his mum has suffered through years of stress. I really don't know and eventually, when my bf and I talk again, I will ask him. My gut is that his mum has been happy and well taken care of though.  Thanks for saying that maybe he didn't tell me about his mum's ill health to try and avoid stressing me. I suppose looking at it from the point of view that says that guys go to their caves and girls to the well could be part of his and my different approaches to the same problem. 

SJTP- Thanks for such a thoughtful answer and I think I may try your tip of giving him some time off, scot-free, so to speak. I guess it would be called like a break, maybe? I guess I'm not feeling resentful for working harder than him because I know that I cannot even put myself in his position (that of one of possibly losing my family), I can't fathom it. I give people, relationships etc, too many chances, I have a bit of a problem in that I always give people the benefit of the doubt. It keeps me happier for the most part but at the same time, I end up wasting time when really maybe I should be cutting my losses and moving on.  My heart says that I should stay with my bf and keep fighting it out with him, its just that my mind says, and all the people in my life think I am giving up too much. Maybe I am too optimistic, maybe I can't blend 2 cultures in my familiy as easily as I think I will be able to but I really do think its possible and can be a wonderful way to live the rest of my life.

Back to taking a break from the relationship, my only fear is that in the 2 weeks (or whatever time frame we choose), that we're apart and not communicating, the only influence in his life will be his family. I fear that they'll be brainwashing him so to speak (because he really is worn down) and he may eventually come to believe that he truly is bad for wanting to deviate from his parents' marriage plan for himself. I worry that all of that will cause him to break up with me. I guess I'm insecure in the relationship. Ahh well, if he breaks up with me and doesn't want to be with me then I guess it wasn't meant to be, right?

One thing I dunno if I am doing wrong or not, I am sending him either an email or text about twice a day. Not demanding he contact me but just saying I love him or thanking him for fighting for us etc. Do you guys think that this is putting more pressure on him and making him feel irritated at me?  He doesn't really answer the messages and I asked if they were bothering him and he didn't reply so I dunno.  If/when we start the break, I wont continue communicating with him, I just want him to know that I'm hear for him.

One more question, you said you "letting him regress back to a much more formal and “polite” relationship for a few weeks after that". Do you mean he was a bit distant- that type of formal and polite, as you would be with someone that you weren't particularily close with?  If so, was that  hurtful to you, being his gf and enduring that cool aloofness? When my bf contacts me now, the communication is brief, distant, formal (no pet names) and he doesn't say he loves me. Do you think I should be worried or is that normal?  You can be honest, if you think its a sign that he is pulling away from me, I really would rather know and be prepared than be shocked if he breaks up with me. 

Thank you guys! I wish I could bake for all of you to say thanks for your advice!

Post edited 11:08 pm – November 27, 2009 by luckyfatima

cakerbakergirl: I guess if he does call it will be after Eid…glad you are at a point of resolution where you are “thinking with your head and not your heart.” I know this whole situation must just be awful. *Hugs* to you.

It is just a wild story, but not at all atypical. I know a lot of similar stories to yours, with various endings…actually, something similar happened to one of my best friends. She is Muslim American of Arab decent, she was seriously considering marrying a guy, he was Pakistani American Muslim of Memon background (Memons—that's like a caste— are the worst for these stories…they don't even marry from the various kinds of Memons, only their own kind,  let alone other non-Memon Pakistanis, so an Arab girl was just a no-no for him). Anyway, he told his family, they objected, finally agreed to meet her, and they were SOOO rude to her. She has very curly hair and they actually insulted her hair texture, among the other rude things they did. It was just crazyness. They were purposely mean to put her off of their son. And it worked. She realized that she didn't want their histrionics in her life. It was really hard for her and she was very depressed afterwards, but it worked out for the best. The guy pursued her afterwards but she just stayed away.

I have a friend back in my home state, she is white American and nominally converted to Islam to make the guy's parents happy, she married her Pakistani boyfriend and his parents pulled out all of the tricks in the book to stop this before it happened, fake heart attack and all. They are a happy couple, but the guys parents still cause problems. I feel bad for her when she has to deal with all of this. But she loves her husband and it has worked out for her in that regard.

Anyway, those are just two little anecdotes of similar situations…you are definately not alone in this. Whatever happens it will work out for the best in the end! Good luck!

Oh, big hugs to you. I think this is very unfair of him to say "I am breaking up with you, but I will love you forever…" because obviously this hasn't given you any closure and has made things worse for you. If he really has chosen to follow his family wishes rather than to be with you, especially considering his mom's health, he needs to simply frame it that way and not soften the blow with emotional games. It sounds to me that he has left the door still open for you, either purposely or just because he couldn't handle ending it permanently.

It is terrible news about his mother's health issues…in this case I would simply pray for her well being, and also hope that God could soften her heart towards you if there is any chance of you two being together, and if not, then you accept this. But I guess you just need to stay away and let this situation with the mom's health resolve.

I want to say that a lot of Pakistani families are very loving and supportive of their children when they choose their own partners and not all families are so crazy like this one. My Pakistani in-laws were completely supportive of my husband and his choice to marry me. I know it doesn't make you feel any better to hear this…I am just bringing this up because I don't want you to get a bad impression of all Pakistanis (my lord, you mentioned you thought they may have honor killed him!!!) since obviously this experience would leave one feeling that Pakistani families are nuts.

Whatever happens, I know that you are gonna be upset about this for sometime, so I hope you have friends/family around to keep your spirits up! My personal advice would be to avoid contacting him for sometime now so that you can get clear headed about the situation again and also because time heals a broken heart. Ice-cream helps, too! Hugs and prayers to you!

Thanks guys. I am less hysterical now, thank goodness. First of all, don't worry, I could never group all Pakistanis in to the crazy category. It was stereotyping that caused his parents to not want a white person in their family after all. :(  If anything, I am extra sensitive to stereotyping.  Also, I know two sets of Pakistani families which I am very close with. One is the guy I work with (though he is young so maybe more modern). The other is my landlords. I rent the basement from a Pakistani joint family. There are actually two nuclear families living above me. They are like a second family to me- truly lovely people. Ammji came to see why I didn't go to work today, she was worried that I was sick and the minute I saw her, I started crying again. She was bringing me roti, as she does all the time because she is so generous and loving. When she saw how upset I was and when I said his name, I think she understood what was wrong. Even though she barely speaks English, we understand eachother.  She made me spend the rest of the afternoon and evening upstairs in their house. She made me tea lunch and supper. The other mum let me hold her 3 week old baby for hours which really made me feel better. They also played their family's latest wedding video (they all went to Pakistani this past spring for a family wedding). Of course, a Pakistani wedding video, with all it's colors, music, gold jewellery, dancing, food and money being handed out helped distract me. I kind of laughed to myself at the irony of what they did to calm me (show me a Pakistani wedding and let me hold a Pakistani baby) two major things that just were ripped from my future life- but it did work and I have not cried in a few hours.  The afternoon kind of reinforced all the aspects of Pakistani culture that I love. My landlords cannot fathom parents being as manipulative as my old bf's parents are. They actually believe that my old bf is a complete liar and was just using me. Thats how shocked they are at his parents' actions. They have told me over and over that if their children came to them having met someone who they wanted to marry and made them happy (and also were suited education wise , level of morality etc) then they would not forbid the marriage and that it would be wrong to do so. They do not believe that parents could be as horrible as his are.

Also, one quality that I have been blessed with (and it really is a blessing), is the ability to not stay angry very long. I am actually no longer angry at him or his family. I was only angry with him when he wasn't calling me. He kept asking me to forgive him and it was so hard to make him understand that I love him so much that I forgave him one minute after he hurt me, if it even took that long. I don't hold grudges. If anything, I just want to love his family, in fact I do feel like I love them. I love him so much and they are his family so I feel like I love them too. I know, I'm weird like that.

I am doing my absolute best to not indulge in any fantasies of getting back together with him. He said he read up on the internet how to break up with someone because he was so worried about it. He actually told me that most advice was to keep it short and not say that you still love the girl. Unfortunately, I knew that he still loved me before we even met up and as soon as I saw him, it was confirmed.

Basically, he felt like he had 2 options:

1. Stay with me and kill his mother and lose his family completely

2. Break up with me and allow me to be free to marry someone without a crazy family and stay with his family so that if/when his mother dies, he knows that he did his best.

He said that it was a lose/lose situation either way. Even though he has given in to this parents, they are still going to hold this against him for the rest of their lives (they have said this and demonstrated it). Basically he has to spend the rest of his life, seeking their forgiveness.

When his mum was in the hospital a couple weeks ago, his parents even brought me up again- literally in the hospital. Basically they were asking him if he would promise to never talk to me again and he refused so they caused a scene in the hospital.

A lot of people on my side say that he is weak but I'm not completely in agreeance. I can't imagine how I would react had my parents behaved like that. Maybe I'd do the same thing. I, like him, love my parents to death. I really dunno what I'd do.

Another unfortunate (?) thing that he brought up was that he was going to retake the LSAT and try to start law school in the fall. None of the schools are here in Toronto, one is in NY state and the other two are very close to my family's house (like a 4 hr drive and a 1 hr drive).  My parents live a couple provinces away from here. He reminded me that he had been accepted in to law school a few yrs ago but his parents talked him out of it, saying he already had a decent job. The thing was that the school was like a 15hr drive from his parent's house so he thinks they just didn't want him to be away from them. Now, he is going to try his best to leave. At the end of that part of the convo, he asked me if I could get a job in the East coast (where the 2 schools and my family is) and also jokingly asked if I would support him through law school… At that point I said, no, that he had choose his mother over me (his future wife) so that would make him unsuitable as a husband (that was my brain speaking, not my heart).  What do you guys think?  If sometime down the road, he does start school in the east coast, would I be foolish to move there too? Obviously, I wouldn't unless there was an engagement at least. Would I be a stupid sucker for agreeing or do you think that maybe everything could turn around?  I suppose, he could live on his own for a while, become his own person and then reappraise his whole life situation, theoretically, he could realise that he'd rather include me in his life and find a way to manage his mother, from a distance. Who knows though. He is really leaving the door open with those comments. He also mentioned a few times how he just couldn't say what he really wanted to say because it wouldn't be fair to me.

I'd love to see him live on his own, be his own person, not just a member of his family and see where he stands after that but I also think I could end up wasting more time than I already have on nothing more than a fantasy. Rationally, I know I need to get out there and at least try to meet other guys, maybe in the new year but then, there is always that "what if" that will be floating through my mind.

I guess the only thing I can do is pray and trust in God that he will take care of both of us, whether it ends up being together or separately.

I have really appreciated everyone's thoughful answers and advice, honestly, you have all helped me significantly. Thank you again.

Post edited 6:52 am – December 1, 2009 by cakerbakergirl

Do you mean like they thought he was having his fun with you but all the while planned to have an arranged marriage to a 'proper' bride of his parents' choice?

Yes- that is precisely what they think. I don't believe it at all though. I met his friends and for the first 3 months of his relationship, his brother hung out with us a lot too. His brother really really liked me and for the first while, fought alongside my old bf, defending me, saying that I am modest etc when the parents balked at the idea. When we were hanging out, I knew he was critically checking me over for his brother but I passed all the tests!  He really liked me and I honestly really liked him.  Plus I met his mum and sister briefly that time. So there is no way at all, he kept me a secret. My landlords just get so angry seeing me sad that they don't listen to my whole story (defending my old bf).

His mother very well could have a particular person in mind for him and just not told him.  He is vehemently opposed to cousin marrying. I asked him multiple times if his mother had a particular girl in mind for him and he always said no. He did the whole arranged meeting thing (Boy and his parents goes to girls house to meet her and her parents) for a couple years. He absolutely hated it and he said he could tell most of the girls weren't in to it either. After that he told his parents he wouldn't participate in any more arranged situations (that was when he was 26-28 yo I think).  His mother was very frank to my colleague telling him that she (and his sister) didn't want a white girl in the family. She said we lie, cheat, manipulate, divorce, have loose morals etc. This is how she is presenting it to my old bf. I think also though and maybe more so, she maybe is thinking about her own self in that she wants someone who she thinks will follow her ways without question, unquestionably take care of her in her old age etc, (I already made it clear to him that if his mother continued to disrespect me throughout our marriage, once she was old, she would not be welcome to live in our home). Because the woman refused to get to know me, she never got to see who I really am, how I live etc. She didn't care about the Urdu I learned almost completely on my own. She didn't care that I spent every night online trying to learn about their culture and traditions. She didn't care that my family has no divorces at all. She didn't care that I was learning how to cook Pakistani food from my ammiji upstairs. She didn't care that I already own 5 Shalwar Kameez… I had them before my he and I even met!  My bf told her all of this repeatedly but it didn't penetrate her mind.  My landlords (who are more traditional than my old bf's family) love me and have tried to set me up with 2 family members so far, people who still live in Pakistan (I politely declined… I need to get to know someone and there familys tradition is for the bride and groom to not meet at all before the wedding… yikes!).  They know me very well and see that I am a good person and someone who could marry guys who have lived their whole lives in Pakistan…  

Any opposition his family has to me being Christian is not because they are genuinely worried about their future childrens' religious education, they are worried what other people will think. Thats what it boils down to unfortunately. They said it repeatedly to him.

I'm numb now (luckily I guess?) so that helps. I'm also getting in to the frustrated stage if the above post didnt make that obvious!  Unfortunately, I only am able to sleep a few hrs a night… and I never ever have problems sleeping.

Sigh……..

Post edited 12:59 am – December 2, 2009 by thatiswhatiam

Ladies,

I am here to give my 2 cents on this topic, and I hope all of you read my post with an open mind and understand that I am out here typing this long post only to help YOU girls comprehend your situation better… so I request you to please try not to misinterpret my words and acknowledge the sincerity in my attempt to help you. 

Now, why am i doing this? As I already told you, I just hope I could be some help to some of you who are going through the horrible pain of being heartbroken. I have had a couple of devastating break-ups myself, which had left me completely heartbroken and in pain and tears for months, and I would not wish that even on my worst enemy. Why do I think I am qualified enough to advice you? I am Indian. I am a 27 year old unmarried Hindu girl (from a very conservative family), born and raised in India for 23 years for my life! I know the Indian society inside out… the Indian families, Indian men… I know them all!

Cakerbakergirl, britgal, and the rest of you non-Indian girls in love with desi men, as I told you earlier, my heart goes out to you! Totally! But, I think to take better care of yourselves (which is very very important) and your feelings, you should comprehend the entirety of the situation you are in. You should look at every possibility and every corner of the current reality of your relationship, and see what is best for you… 'which way in' or 'which way out' of this relationship will do you good without you having to feel like you have caused pain to someone! First of all, and most importantly, you have to realize, YOU are NOT the reason for your BF's parents getting hurt, being hospitalized, undergoing medication, puking blood or whatever it maybe! You are not the reason for any of this shit and don't ever let anyone lead you into feeling guilty or selfish, when you know you have not done anything wrong and you are not a selfish person! The reason for their misery is none other than their own age-old prejudices, narrow-mindedness and their INABILITY to accept changing times. Yes, I am saying this while my own parents are so so conservative. I love my parents and would never say mean things about them… but this IS the reality.

When it comes to the guys, I am sorry to say this, but I feel most of you are looking at the situation two-dimensionally! To me it looks like you have not yet explored the possible depth to the position where you BF stands in. My advice to you, when it comes to Indian men, please don't take everything by just face-value! I know and strongly believe that trust is the most important factor in any healthy relationship, but when things are going wrong, you also have to make sure that you are not being taken for a ride and your tears and suffering are not being wasted on something which is not worthy of them. I truly wish and hope your BF is worthy of your longing for him, but what if the reality is a little different from that? Look, as I told you earlier I do not generalize usually, and neither do I want to unnecessarily poison your mind with DOUBT! But, I just want to introduce you to some possibilities, which to me seem to fit in to this situation. It upto you, how you want to look at it.

Possibilities:

A)  Everything is just like how you think it is. Your boyfriend truly loves you and WANTS to marry you, but also loves his parents so much that he cannot see them suffer even a bit… and so the current situation.

B) Your boyfriend loves you and WANTS to marry you, but does not have the spine to stand up to his parents, because in his heart and life, his parents and family will ALWAYS occupy most of the space. You or any woman he loves is not and never going to be in the list of the top 4 or 5 people who most important in his life! 

I do not want to criticize such a man. To each, his own. But do you think such a man deserves YOUR love… you, who considers him to be the most important in your life, and are ready to go to any extent, like even giving up your religion/culture for the sake of this guy? Okay, even if the 'deserve' logic doesnt work for you too well, think about it this way… even if you do some voodoo (joke!) or something to convince him to go against his family and marry you, what happens after the voodoo effect wears out? His family, typically mother, is going to interfere in every nook and corner of your personal married life… even things like… when you should have kids, how your house should look, what you should wear, whether you should work or not… just say that, apart from your sex-positions, every inch of your life and home is going to function under her scrutiny! To your husband, his mother's words are going to be like the holy grail or something, and he would expect you to revere his mom like the way he does! Look again, I am not saying all guys and all mothers are like that… but I can tell you, this situation is a POSSIBILITY when the guy prioritizes his family WAY higher than you. 

You know something, if he has to, he WILL marry you and probably could even succeed to do so with his parent's blessings! But that is only if he HAS TO, if he truly, deeply WANTS TO! I bet my life on this! Do you know how difficult Indian parents make it for daughters? You cannot even imagine the way I was brought up… I was not allowed to talk to guys on the phone till I was like 23 years old. I had to come back home before 8pm till I was 23. My mother would feel free to slap me if she thinks I really went wrong, till I was 23. When I was 23 I decided to break free and came to the US for higher studies. They at first didn't even believe that they could send a daughter to another country without her husband! They said, we will marry you off and then you can go where ever you want with your husband! I just didn't succumb to it! I fought my way out! Today, I disgrace them because I am already gonna be 28 and still not married, so they want to arrange my wedding! I put my foot down and said, “if I marry, it will be when I meet someone by myself on my terms, even if it going to be a white/black guy or a Muslim guy, I don't care, I will marry him if I fall in love with him”! My parents just CAN”T say anything to me! Do you think they didn't try the 'emotional blackmail' with me… like how my mom's health is getting screwed because of me, and how my Dad is getting heart disease because of me… and how they are going to die worrying about me, and being disgraced in the community… and whatnot! But because I WANTED TO and HAD TO lead my life my own way, I put my foot down, and said “you cannot instill this guilt into my head”! They finally had to GIVE UP! Even now occasionally they give me such shit… but eventually I know they will stop it, especially after they see me marry someone i love and raise a happy family with him… after my parents see how I have CHOSEN happiness for myself, they will stop it! 

My story is probably just nothing, when compared to that of so many of my other guy and girl friends. When a few of my 24-26 year old girlfriends who knew whom they wanted to marry, broke the news to their families they were beaten by their dads and moms! They were cursed and abused and told how the families could be disgraced. It COULD get quiet ugly… people around can go to the extent of talking baseless shit like “that girl had become pregnant with a very very bad guy, and so her parents agreed to marry her off to that guy!” When Indian parents hear such shit about their daughters, you have no idea what they go through! But my girlfriends knew they truly and deeply wanted to, and had to marry the men they loved, so they faced all that and yet put their foot down… even when parents threatened of suicide ( I know of a girl whose mom acted like she was about to hang herself right in front of this girl… the girl obviously stopped her mother, but was still not intimidated by her parents, and succeeded in marrying the guy she loved!). My point here is, the pressure on the girls in our society is MUCH greater than even ten times that of the pressure on sons, yet when MANY of those girls can face their parents and marry the guys they loved, then I think ANYONE can do it, only if they truly believe they want to! If your BF has some doubt within himself, then no matter what you do or say, it will not make you more important to him than his family and society! So, it is of NO use, and you have to realize its not worth it, and simply move on!

PS: Just for your info, many parents of those rebel girls eventually saw their daughters happily married with these genuine honest guys whom they loved, and hence eventually gave up their egos and are sharing a healthy/happy relationship with their daughters and son in laws. A few rebel girls have not heard anything from their parents ever since they walked out and got married a couple of years ago… but nobody died! Unfortunately, for a small percentage of the brave girls, things didn't work out so well… after getting married, they realized that the guys for whom they fought so much, are actually not worthy of it at all… and the marriages have failed. But none the less, these girls have become independent and are moving on in life, even though they are lonely without parents and husband! 

After A) and B), more possibilities coming up in my next post….

To summarize, I would simply say… see, most of you have done EVERYTHING you can! Not just let it be… they are your boyfriend's parents, so its only upto the boyfriend to convince them! Support him if you are sure that you are not being taken for granted or disrespected, and also if you are sure that he deserves it! In spite of all this, if he decides he does not want to marry you, then that is the point when you determine that you deserve much better in life. If he leaves his parents for you, welcome him with open arms (please don't think its worth it, for you to sacrifice your love for the sake of his parents' happiness! i mean, please don't try to be a hero and say 'go back to your parents' or some crap like that)! Give him double the love! :) If he even manages to convince his parents, then good for you… but make sure you are NOT made to feel like you should be grateful to that family for accepting you! Never trivialize your self-worth! Make them realize how lucky they are to have you! :)

THISISWHATIAM- I liked your bolded text about nobody having died despite all the threats- haha.  I do think that on the part of his family, there has been some Bollywood theatrics. I actually mentioned something along those lines to my old bf and he looked hurt that I could even suggest his mother and father would fake illness.  I believe a small (maybe large) part of him is brainwashed. I do believe about the bloody vomit though because his mother does have an ulcer and coincidentally very poorly matched her only daughter with an abusive guy in an arranged marriage, 2 yrs ago.  It just ended in divorce and the family is a wreck from that. I think that the guilt, sadness etc the parents feel about their involvement in the failed marriage is the root of all their stress and drama but they cannot admit to themselves or the rest of the family that they played any role in the divorce so they use my old bf and me the gori, as the cause of their stress/illness. Since the whole family is so messed up, nobody is stopping to think that a bleeding ulcer does not develop after just a few months of stress, it takes a lot longer. I believe the mother would have been vomiting blood right now regardless of her knowledge of our "illiicit" relationship.  One thing I have always tried to do over the course of the relationship was remain objective. I listened to what everyone had to say (and people had a lot to say) due to the religious and cultural differences. Most people on my side warned me to be careful, to get out, etc. I never disregarded what they said until I had time to completely think about it. Your detailed answer is the same. Thank you for writing as much as you did and clearly spelling things out the way you did. I honestly do not know 100% what scenario my old bf is in.  I think hes in category A but in a dream world, he'd be in the last category. I guess only time will tell. I do know that right now, he is not mentally strong enough to put me before his family. I could never be married to a man in that mindset. If he did want to get back together with me, I would need him to show me that he would truly put me first. I believe he knows that too, hence the breakup.

The examples you gave about meddlesome MILs, I actually also gave to him when we were together. I explained that I had no patience for people critiquing superficial things (clothes, hair style, house cleaning etc things his mother and sister gossip about) and that his mother and I would most definitely probably have different ideas on how to rear children. I warned him that it could cause conflict and that I would listen to her suggestions and use them if they made sense to me. After all, I do love learning about other cultures and am happy to learn about how people do things, often for thousands of years in other countries. If though, his mother's suggestions didnt make sense to me, I would not use them and that he needed to be prepared to not find a happy medium between his mother and I but to defer to me, as his wife.  This is all assuming it was something that he had no strong opinion on.  If he himself disagreed with me, than we'd discuss. He seemed to think, being a bit of a people pleaser like he is, that sometimes he could take my side and other times his mothers. I explained that no, that would cause major problems and that he had to prepare himself to have to completely disagree and flat out refuse to do things his mother told him to do (when it came to our nuclear family, marriage etc). We had variations of this convo at least once a month actually because I cannot tolerate having a marriage of 3 people (including a MIL).

Julia- Thanks, I'm getting better, I think…

Good point about "point 1".  Your wording is more along the lines of what I was truly trying to convey. I also like your FIL's advice to you… it seems that following that could really help to strengthen a marriage. 

Our relationship is going better now in that we are back together, officially. I think we learned that being apart wasn't at all an option. It doesn't make anything easier for him unfortunately but at least I can support him. We spent last night (NYE) together and it was lovely, as always. :)  He is in the process of learning how to say no to his parents and redefine their expectations of him, slowly but surely.  For instance, his parents wanted him and his younger brother (27 y/o) to stay home with them on NYE. The both explained that no, they already had plans and would be going out with their friends. The parents made a fuss but the boys went out anyway. I was proud of him because I know it was hard to do. He has to get used to saying no, and his parents have to get used to hearing no. I hope that eventually, they will start to understand what is reasonable vs unreasonable to ask of their sons. 

One thing I struggle with his when he tries to reassure me that they are very nice people and would never say anything mean to anyone.  From my standpoint, sure, its easy to not say mean things to people's faces but when you say terrible things about them behind their backs or refuse to even reassess your racist views, then you aren't a nice person. I know it hurts my bf that I feel this way but its true. The only way I can soften it to him and to think more positive is to look at it like it is a challenge that God is throwing at them and wanting them to overcome. If I look at it like its a temporary character flaw, I am less likely to think they aren't good people (since everyone has flawsl!).

Overall though, I feel much better about everything and I'm so happy to be able to hug him again

Correction*

 If his love was you was not strong enough or true enough, he would have just given up and would NEVER have gotten back in touch with you or be willing to try and make this a successful relationship, and he would have even let his parents arrange his marriage by now! 

Cakerbakergirl,

I am so sorry to hear about you recent breakup and all the challenges you had to face.  Lots of hugs to you.  I know you are in deep pain right now, and it appears as though you heart will never heal.  But rest assure, as cliche as it sounds, time does heal all.  Right now the best you can do is take care of yourself, do whatever is necessary to deal with this lost, cry, scream, eat lots of ice cream, take long baths, etc… whatever works for you.  The road ahead will be challenging and there will be times when you will want to call him, hear his voice, feel his touch, this is all normal, but do yourself a favor and resist.  Contacting him will only reopen the wounds and you will have to start the healing process all over again.  

I know it seems as though all this has been for nothing, perhaps one giant practical joke the cosmos are playing on you to cause you excruciating pain, but this is not the case.  This is a life lesson. One that you can learn and grow from.  Take the good and the bad from this and use all your information to form better and stronger relationships in the future.  Also, do take comfort in knowing that you did everything you possible could.  You will not wake up and wonder "what if", you gave it your all.  Maybe that's the best gift he gave you with this second encounter.  It sounds horrible I know, but without this last chance you might always be wondering "what could of been."  Now you can move on with a clear head, and take the steps to mend your broken heart.

Take care.         

My heart goes out to you and I am sorry that you are suffering so much.  It is agonizing I know.  Everyone is right, take the time to let out all your emotions and cry, cry, cry.  It is what you have to do.  And then do something really great for yourself.  Keep yourself busy.  Do things you have always wanted to do but haven't yet.  Take the time to appreciate yourself.  That can never be taken away from you.

I am so sorry! i am very tempted to judge him based on how he walks into and out of your life according to his whims and his parents' erratic spells of madness… but I won't! Because I want to talk about YOU… not anyone else!

From my limited knowledge, what I can suggest is… if it helps, you can write down a list of 'things' that are/should be important to you. Like, the list should contain 'him', 'the relationship' and 'I'(you). It can also contain other stuff like 'the memories', 'your desires', 'his feelings', 'your future' etc. Once the list is done, just see the order in which you have made the list! That can kinda give you an idea of how your mind is prioritizing these things. If you don't see "I" on the top, which is most probable, then immediately tear the list with anger, taking out all your frustration on that piece of paper. If you want burn it, flush it down the toilet… do the meanest thing to it! Next, take a fresh paper, smell the freshness in the paper and in a beautiful handwriting, in the most artistic way, re-do the same list! This time, deliberately top the list with "I", following it up with "My Life", "My Future", "Me Wellbeing"… and all the other points which are positively related to ONLY you! Write the words related to you, with a smile! :) Other petty things like 'him' and 'that relationship' can follow the points related to you.

Why do I think this will help? Because YOU are and should be your top priority! That's how life works normally. If you are religious, then you might understand it this way, God's best gift to you was YOU! So everything else around you is possible because of YOUR existence. If you were not here, how would it matter to you whats happening in this damn world? You are the point of reference to the entire world, entire universe, which is SO vast! All this might sound like some philosophical bullshit, but even you will agree with me if I say that ONLY if you are happy and healthy, can you care of your present and future relationships and the people with whom you share these relationships. ONLY if you are happy, can you give happiness to the people whom you love. Otherwise, you would just be like your ex BF's parents! It's because they are NOT happy (and not even close to even experiencing happiness), that they are pushing their own children into unhappiness! Learn from their mistake! You would HATE to become like them, right? Then please please please make yourself happy and healthy. Make sure you smile as often as you can. :) That really helps! One suggestion would be to do some volunteer work, where you can help people (especially children and young women) in REAL need. You will be surprised to feel the bliss of feeling tired by doing this work! Really, that tiredness is the most blissful feeling i've experienced… more than love… more than anything! :)

Once you realize the importance of YOURSELF, then I am sure nothing will come between you and happiness… to you, and to all the people in YOUR world, whom you will give happiness to!  And you have the power to decide who is in your world and who is not… but that is a task you can take care of later… first you should just sense YOUR power!