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3:04 pm
October 16, 2009
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Gori Girl
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Post edited 4:37 pm – October 17, 2009 by Gori Girl
For anyone who hasn't seen it, this post lays out the basics of the plan of the Hindi Project. I'll post more here tomorrow on my exact goals and strategy of learning Hindi. While I do know a little, I'm going to be going back to the basics to make sure I've got all of the script down – no more transliteration for me!
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5:15 pm
October 16, 2009
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kck
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Hey, if you want a not-too-good-at-hindi practice partner, let me know. We can use google chat or something, 'cause I need to work on my hindi too.
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7:13 pm
October 16, 2009
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sistergh
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GG – Mind if I use you as an impetus to practice Hindi too? I haven't tried to learn script yet, but I can't seem to find any in-depth resources that don't require learning script. Any thoughts on either how difficult it is to learn script or books/cds/etc that don't require script? I have an introductory Pimsleur cd set that I like, but I'm almost done with those and I have Rosetta Stone, which is not a great learning tool for me. Good luck!
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10:14 pm
October 16, 2009
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
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I can speak Hindi/Urdu and also a bit of Punjabi and Bengali. I did pick up the Punjabi and Bengali pretty much aurally with the help of a Teach Yourself Book after having studied Hindi/Urdu. (I did a development oriented internship in Bangladesh some years ago and spend a lot of time around Punjabi speakers and Punjabiphone Urdu and Hindi speakers in my daily life) I also have two degrees in Linguistics, the graduate degree with focus on language teaching and learning…so I have a lot to say on the subject.
GG: Do you have extra time to spare this summer? Can you get over to Mussoorie, a hill station near to Dehra Doon? If you google Landour Language School, you will find that you can go there for cheap Hindi instruction. You should contact the director because if they have any Bangla speaking instructors, they can hook you up for that, too.
For any other Hindi learners: About the Sanskritized Hindi versus spoken Hindi thing…I know Rosetta stone teaches Shuddh Hindi. Shuddh Hindi is still a very artificial language developed for political reasons with an attempt to divorce the language that is developing as Hindi from its Persio-Arabic and also British English influences. Shuddh Hindi is only accessible to the literate and educated, the same type of people who speak English. So there is a class issue with Shuddh Hindi, too. As in people who have not had the resources to study it in school cannot understand news broadcasts and so forth because the register used in official situations is so Sanskritized. Maybe just 10 years ago even, Shuddh Hindi still sounded extremely stiff and odd in daily parlance. But more and more Shuddh Hindi vocab is being used by people in the daily vernacular. (it still sounds stiff and off though) I think in a few decades, Hindi and Urdu (which also has a high Persio-Arabized literary register inaccessable to the uneducated) will have real linguistically distinct identities on the vernauclar level, while today the distinctions are still few enough that really common spoken Urdu is no more different from daily spoken Hindi than Dilli Hindi is from Bombay Hindi…as in there are differences in accent and vocabulary but they are still pretty much mutually intelligable as long as one avoids high register Sanskrit or chaste Urdu words…and at this point in history it isn't even a matter of avoiding, it is done naturally, so that when one buys vegetables are a market or shops for clothing material or catches a rickshaw, one would use a similar register (just with variations based on the town as some places have different vernacular, and accent of course (no sabji in Urdu, it is sabzi!!!).
The point of all of this is just that you should be aware of what you are learning if you have a book/program teaching you Shuddh Hindi. You will sound funny to people and you will have to learn to adjust what you say so as not to sound so funny. So just be aware.
Interestingly, Bangladeshi Bengali has also had a Sanskritization movement to weed itself of Urdu-ish words since of course one of the main issues leading to the birth of the Bangla nation was pro-Bangla language politics. I don't know about Western Bangla, if there are language issues there. There are indeen a lot of Persio-Arabic words in spoken Bangla as well. Although it seems to me to be more naturally Sanskrit laden than spoken Hindustani. (Hindustani is a more accurate way to describe vernacular Hindi/Urdu registers.)
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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12:22 am
October 17, 2009
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Nidhi
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I'd be willing to try to participate with the Hindi Project, too. I have a heavy workload this semester but learning Hindi is something I'd really like to do. I posted some resources in the resource thread, and I also have a couple Hindi books from Usha R. Jain from which I could scan some pages if I find more information that could help us.
My biggest setback learning Hindi so far is only knowing one person who speaks it and that person not willing to answer a million questions and translate as many words. When I'm alone, it's hard for me to figure out how a word is correctly spoken even if the "directions" are written down.
I've also got this list I wrote down nearly two years ago now…if something is wrong or could be transliterated better, please let me know!
Lerki – girl
Lerka – boy
Rath – night
Dhin – daytime
Dhoop – sunlight
Phool – flower
Katab – book
(meh) app/thu co pyar cru'thon – I love you, you are my love
Soja – sleep
Pani – water
Kana – food
Namaste – hello/goodbye
Ghaa – go away
Ghaa yaa say – go away from here specifically
Ither aah – come here
Yaa ither aah – come here specifically
Haah – yes
Nay – no
Meh co chea – I want
Best of luck to all of you in this endeavor!
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1:54 am
October 17, 2009
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
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For language usage and vocab questions, I use the Indo-Iranian section of the excellent Word Reference forums very frequently for my Hindi and Urdu questions. I highly recommend the place. Some very dedicated and knowledgeable Hindi and Urdu speakers hang out there and answer all of our (learners') questions. There are a variety of learners from people who are fairly fluent to those who are just starting out.
Just because a person speaks a language doesn't mean that they have a clue how to teach it or answer grammar questions or give accurate explanations of "why we say what we say." (e.g.could you tell an English learner why we say dogs with a -z- sound at the end but cats with an -s- sound?) This includes our husbands/boyfriends, too. So I would say our guys and people from their communities are useful for practicing and perhaps for pronouncing words aloud, but often not very helpful at teaching. So it is good to use resources like the one above for explanations.
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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6:34 am
October 19, 2009
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Americanepali
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Post edited 6:42 am – October 19, 2009 by Americanepali
luckyfatima said:
GG: Do you have extra time to spare this summer? Can you get over to Mussoorie, a hill station near to Dehra Doon? If you google Landour Language School, you will find that you can go there for cheap Hindi instruction. You should contact the director because if they have any Bangla speaking instructors, they can hook you up for that, too.
So funny you should mention Mussoorie! I studied Hindi at the Landour Language School for a month a few years ago! If anyone is interested in heading up there, let me know… I have some contacts in the area 
luckyfatima said:
Just because a person speaks a language doesn't mean that they have a clue how to teach it or answer grammar questions or give accurate explanations of “why we say what we say.” (e.g.could you tell an English learner why we say dogs with a -z- sound at the end but cats with an -s- sound?) This includes our husbands/boyfriends, too. So I would say our guys and people from their communities are useful for practicing and perhaps for pronouncing words aloud, but often not very helpful at teaching. So it is good to use resources like the one above for explanations.
I DEFINITELY agree. I think I know how I learn language, and I know that interacting with a teacher in a class is by far the best way for me to learn (I guess that probably goes without saying for most anyway) but it wasn't until I tried learning Nepali off and on that I realized just how hard it is to "teach yourself" without a class or at least the basics taught by a real teacher who understands how to teach a language. Other than practicing conversation, I've pretty much abandoned trying to learn Nepali with P, and even my friend who is "tutoring" me now… someone who used to translate as a job… has trouble explaining grammar concepts and "why" something is the way it is.
It makes me wonder just how helpful these "teaching English abroad" programs are for new (native English speaking) graduates in places like Korea, China and Japan– most of these "teachers" have no language training whatsoever besides being a native speaker, how are they able to teach?? I love to read and write, but I think I'd probably struggle.
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8:28 am
October 19, 2009
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hindiTA
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Post edited 8:36 am – October 19, 2009 by hindiTA
Yes–teaching is definitely different than speaking! However, it's also a great learning opportunity, especially when you have a fantastic teacher as your mentor. I had the good fortune to TA for first-year Hindi after learning for three years and studying abroad in Jaipur. I absolutely loved the teaching experience.
Also, I completely agree with luckyfatima's post on shuddh Hindi. And Gori Girl, it's fantastic that you're trying to learn the script. I found Hindi much easier after I could read devanagari. The devanagari script was built for Sanskrit sounds, whereas the roman alphabet wasn't. Design aside, it's easier for me to remember words and names when I know what they look like. Learning the script really helped me internalize the sounds and shapes of the language.
Good luck everyone!
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9:14 am
October 19, 2009
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Americanepali
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I found this book really helpful in learning the script and practicing how it looks and how I should write it:
http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yo…..amp;sr=8-1
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10:03 pm
October 19, 2009
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Gori Girl
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Post edited 10:17 pm – October 19, 2009 by Gori Girl
kck, I'm definitely not at the “chat in Hindi” stage of learning yet! I'm more in the “able to communicate basic needs” stage. Thanks for the offer, tho! I'd love to hear more about how your progress in learning Hindi is going – perhaps you have some incredibly motivating story about how Hindi is super easy to learn once you get past the first few lessons?  Are you still working on learning the language, or are you satisfied with your current fluency?
sistergh, feel free to join in! That's why I posted this, after all.  I've listed a few Hindi resources here, but they're mostly script-based. I do think that learning the Hindi script is worthwhile, for reasons similar to what hindiTA wrote. The way I figure, it'll take about two weeks of serious work to learn the majority of the letters and conjuncts (being able to correctly pronounce them is a whole 'nother story), and then I'll be able to study much more efficiently. (I'm a visual learner.) I also think that it's a better long-term strategy for learning vocabulary, since I'll be able to pick up (children's) books and magazines to read. If you're interested in learning the script, the best book (for adults) that I've found is Teach Yourself Beginner's Hindi Script.  . (Same one as Americanepali mentions above.)
Oh, and I've been struggling a little bit with Rosetta Stone, too, but I think it'll become easier once I can read the words in the script. I've used Rosetta before for learning advanced German, and it was fantastic, so I think I'm mainly struggling with it due to the non-Roman alphabet.
luckyfatima, any advice you can give is appreciated! I work full time (and, sadly, don't get months of vacation time…) so there's no chance I can take an intensive course in India. There are some college courses available around here, but I have a pretty demanding job, so it's better for me to study at home at the moment. Luckily, Aditya has studied Hindi and Sanskrit formally and done some literary translation work from Hindi & Bengali into English, so he's generally a good resource when I have specific questions about grammar or why things work the way they do in Hindi. He's pants at just straight-up teaching, tho, and I'd never want to use him as my primary resource in learning Hindi. (Oh, and Bengali as spoken in West Bengal, as far as I know, does not contain many borrowed Arabic words.)
Nidhi, it'd be great if you joined in as well (altho don't sweat it if you don't have the time – regular classes should come first)! Personally, I've found that Aditya's ability as a native Hindi speaker is most helpful in filling in the blanks from other resources – I'll ask him specific questions when a book is unclear or I want a more detailed explanation, or I'll ask him to correct my Hindi pronunciation/writing “homework” from a book. For help with pronouncing words, there are a fair number of online resources now (see the link above) – and if you put in the time to learn the script (rather than transliterating) then, after the initial hump, I don't think you'll need quite so much help in learning how to pronouce new words.
Americanepal, I agree with you & luckyfatima that non-language-teachers should not be the primary resource for learning a language, even if they're native speakers. Of course, it's easier to get away with self-study in Hindi, as there are a lot of resources out there for someone willing to work hard (compared to Nepalese at least, I believe). So if I don't understand a particular concept, I can just bounce from one resource to another until I find an explanation that makes sense. Taking a class would be best, of course…
hindiTA, great of you to stop in! Are there any resources in particular you would suggest for learning Hindi (and how did you like Jaipur?)
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Today I studied for about an hour & a half. Choice quote of the evening from Aditya was "You don't know how to pronounce your own language, do you?" when we were having a disagreement about how aspirated "keel" and "kill" were. Best decision made was rereading the 1st chapter in Teach Yourself Hindi Complete Course, which discuss in great (and sometimes boring) detail where, exactly, one's tongue is placed to pronounce certain consonants. Aditya and I had a very interesting discussion regarding the three levels of honorific "you" in Hindi vs. Bengali – for instance, तुम (tum – relatively informal "you") is used in Bengali for all family members, including parents, wheras in Hindi one generally uses आप (ap) for all elders.
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2:12 am
October 20, 2009
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
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Oh, and Bengali as spoken in West Bengal, as far as I know, does not contain many borrowed Arabic words.)
Spoken West Bengali does contain quite a lot of Persian and Arabic words (the Arabic words entered thru Persian). They are in all of the Indian languages, but very heavily used in the North Indian languages. I am guessing the literary language is naturally Sanskritized and doesn't use Persio-Arabic loan words at all, though.
What I am not sure about is whether the same politically driven Sanskritization of modern Hindi and East Bengali Bangla (a conscious choice to use a Sanskrit origin word rather than a Persian or Arabic loan word in the spoken language) is there for the ghotis as well…
Some of the many Persian and Arabic words you may not realize you know, albeit with a Bengali pronunciation: i.e. shobji=sabzi, persian, khobor=news, Arabic (as in ki khobor?, the "wuzzup" of Bangla), kharaap=bad, Arabic, maaf (as in maaf koren, maaf korben for excuse or forgive) maaf=arabic, khub (khub beshi daami, khub bhalo…) very, a lot, Persian, majaa=fun, enjoyable, Persian, and on and on…
It is my observation that Bangla on either side of the border is not as heavily Persio-Arabized as Hindustani, or say, Punjabi. As in daily Bangla seems to have a lot more "regular" words from Sanskrit and through the Prakrit.
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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7:10 am
October 20, 2009
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Gori Girl
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luckyfatima said:
Oh, and Bengali as spoken in West Bengal, as far as I know, does not contain many borrowed Arabic words.)
Spoken West Bengali does contain quite a lot of Persian and Arabic words (the Arabic words entered thru Persian). They are in all of the Indian languages, but very heavily used in the North Indian languages. I am guessing the literary language is naturally Sanskritized and doesn't use Persio-Arabic loan words at all, though.
I meant relative to Hindi/Hindustani – obviously there are going to be some Persian/Arabic words in Bengali. But there's less of an influence, overall – similar to the relationship between German & English vs. German & Dutch (not a perfect comparision, but the first that's occuring to me).
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3:43 pm
October 22, 2009
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hindiTA
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Jaipur was awesome. It's a fantastic place for language practice. As for resources, I found the Teach Yourself course to be a great spelling and grammar supplement during my first two years of study. It's very easy to navigate and serves as a handy reference.
If your primary objective is to think and speak in Hindi, my advice is to practice, practice, practice with native speakers. Try to watch Hindi movies without subtitles. Watching with subtitles encourages your brain to translate for listening and speaking, which you don't want, so avoid them. You'll be surprised at how much you pick up. Try to use Hindi exclusively for routine tasks with native speakers–get in the habit of saying small expressions like क्या, कैसे हो ?, कोई बात नहीं, चलें?, and anything else you know on autopilot. Try to make Hindi your first reaction (i.e. क्या instead of 'what') in any situation.
And finally, write, write, write. Write a paragraph about anything every day, or a few times a week. Start now, even if it's just a simple written conversation between two friends. Force yourself to write without any English words. The moment you think you can't express an idea in Hindi, ask yourself whether you can express that idea with simpler words. It's somewhat like playing Taboo with a foreign language. Most of the time, it is possible to express what you're thinking in a different, sometimes roundabout, way. Don't give up until you've tried thinking through all the Hindi you know for at least a few minutes. The writing exercise will train your brain to work in Hindi. As the months pass, your reliance on the Teach Yourself book and any other dictionaries will lessen. You'll be better at formulating thoughts in Hindi in both written and spoken contexts.
So, are any of you trying to learn Bengali at the moment? luckyfatima, you said you mostly picked it up by ear… I'm interested in learning to read and write as well as speak and listen. The interest in text is partly due to my fascination with scripts, partly because I'd love to read Tagore in Bangla, and partly for the pleasure of reading signs and newspapers. The spoken interest, on the other hand, is mainly for family reasons.
Anyway, I'd love to join the Hindi project to do daily reporting on keeping up with my Hindi, relearning to write in Urdu, and learning Bengali. The group work is a fantastic incentive!
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11:35 pm
October 22, 2009
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
| Member | posts 56 |
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I used the Teach Yourself Bengali book (or maybe it was Colloquial Bengali)…to teach myself the script, and had a few tutorials on the script with a friend of mine who showed me the ins and outs. It was very easy to learn for me since I already knew devnagri. However, I haven't kept up the reading and now when I see written Bangla I can't read all of the letters :-(
I used the book to memorize the different endings in the verb tenses, like I go, you go, he she it goes, we go, they go, then future, past, past preterite, etc and to compare how Bangla grammar was different than Hindi, So I can't say that I picked it up entirely by ear. When I first went to Bangladesh I couldn't understand what was being said around me, just catch a few words. And it all sounded like shh shhh sshhh since in Bangla everything that is -s- in Hindi is -sh-, but after a few weeks I could understand much of what was being said around me, and by 2 months I was speaking and shopping and all in Bangla. I didn't learn to read literature, I just wanted communication.
I think that is an important thing for learners: what are your language goals? Do you want to read poetry? Do academic work in the foreign language? Or do you just want to be able to do daily tasks in the FL like shopping, taking transport, etc, and have convos with you in-laws, being able to understand what your ILs are saying, etc. I actually feel that for gori wives who just want communication, being able to read is not a necessity. Though it will make learning easier in the long run because it expands the resources you can use as learning materials. However, if it is too much trouble and time consuming to learn to read, that is okay for you, too if that suits your learning goals.
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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8:37 am
October 26, 2009
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Gori Girl
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Just as an update, I'm continuing to study my Hindi script – mainly through the Teach Yourself Hindi Script book mentioned above. Each day I'm working on memorizing a line of letters, as well as working through the chapters in the book. I'll try to get a post up in a day or two on the blog side of things regarding my exact working schedule. For everyone else, it'd be great if you could think about a specific schedule & goals you'd like to work for (with times!) so we can all keep you accountable.
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8:39 pm
October 28, 2009
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istina
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(Since this is my first post, I thought I'd do a mini-introduction: I'm not in an intercultural relationship, but I've been around Indian culture most of my life. I'd probably be the Indian in the relationship. )
Nidhi, you said you wanted someone to nitpick your Hindi and transliterations. I thought I'd make a few corrections. I'm not a native speaker, but I've been learning Hindi for several years now.
In bold is how the word is generally transliterated:
Lerki – girl –> ladki
Lerka – boy –> ladka
Rath – night –> raat
Dhin – daytime –> din
Dhoop – sunlight
Phool – flower
Katab – book –> kitaab
(meh) app/thu co pyar cru'thon – I love you, you are my love –> Main tum se pyar karta/i hoon is generally how the sentence is transliterated. Is "cru'thon" "karta hoon"?
Soja – sleep –> so jaa
Pani – water
Kana – food –> khana
Namaste – hello/goodbye
Ghaa – go away –> Jaa.
Ghaa yaa say – go away from here specifically –> Jaa yahan se. Even though it sounds like "yaa" when said quickly, it's pronounced "yuh-haa". The end should be nasalized.
Ither aah – come here –> Idhar aa.
Yaa ither aah – come here specifically –> Yahan ihdar aa.
Haah – yes –> haan
Nay – no –> ne/nahin
Meh co chea – I want —> I may be wrong, but I usually hear this sentence as "Mujhe chahiye," pronounced "muhj-ay chaa-hi-eh."
<—- nitpicker. 
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7:57 am
January 4, 2010
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kck
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Post edited 7:58 am – January 4, 2010 by kck
How is the Hindi project going? F. and I had a fun practice session last night. In Gujarati I can't do much (“what's for dinner” is limit of my eloquence), so I decided to brush up on my Hindi before we leave for India so that I can get around a little better. He was making a list of things to do before we leave, so we talked about what was on the list and related topics. I added “talk to kck in Hindi a little every day” to it.
We talked about:
reading and writing
sending me email
fingernails and toenails (nak, not to be confused with naak for nose)
fingers and toes (oongliyaan and something similar but different that I have forgotten)
what an elbow is called (neither of us know — I described them as “haathon/baahon ke corners” and knees as “pairon ke corners”)
how long it will take to do tasks (this included a little confusion on my part between the numbers 15, 25, and 50)
whether it was easy to watch movies in Hindi
whether I should go to the gym this evening before or after dinner
F. should play guitar
F. pointed to his head and asked what it was called, and I called it a headache (sardard). He straightened me out (“ye sar hai, ye dimaag hai”) but I didn't know what a dimaag was. He said “jis se tum sochti ho” and I asked “jo aankhon ke pichhe hai?” Yes, it's a brain. Then we talked about how dimaag sounded like a word that ought to mean villain, and I tried to remember what the word for villain was (I thought I learned it from an Om Shanti Om song) but all I could remember was naujvaa (young man).
My amusing Hindi trivia of the day is that there's a song in a classic movie (Johnny Mera Naam) called “Nafrat Karne Walon Ke Sine Mein Pyar Bhar Doon” (“I'll fill the haters' hearts with love” or something like that). I love that this song from the 70s is talking about the haters. Precociously predicting what hip-hop would be doing 20 years later.
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11:41 pm
January 4, 2010
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
| Member | posts 56 |
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Shaabaash! Very good. BTW elbow is "kohni" and knee is "ghuTna"
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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6:30 am
January 5, 2010
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kck
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| Member | posts 33 |
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Kal ham se practice nahin ho paya. Der ho gaya aur so jaana sabse bada kaam lagta tha.
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