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8:46 am
June 8, 2009
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mahi
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Post edited 8:50 am – June 8, 2009 by mahi
How do you deal with (presumably culturally) different levels of politeness?
I am German and tend to be, let's say, blunt. My new boyfriend is the epitome of politeness. In situations where he says: “Pardon me, would you mind opening the window, please?” I would utter “Hey, open the window.”
Now, this difference only became apparent recently, when he told me I sometimes seem aggressive towards him. I, on the other hand, feel he's overly polite, avoids confrontations and tiptoes around the issues.
- Now, my question is, did you encounter a similar style difference in communications, and how did you deal with that?
I can of course try to use more polite phrases when talking to him and try to listen more closely to the one million nuances he's able to convey in whatever he says (and he can do the same in reverse), but I wonder if this is a realistic solution, since my way of expressing myself seems to be a very fundamental part of my personality (Or am I wrong?). My first reaction will always be to say: ”Hey, open the window.” I might be able to get in the habit of saying “Can we open the window?”, but I wonder if this is enough. I just wonder if this is one of those little things that would grate on a relationship over time. I know it would probably get annoyed if a person would constantly talk to me in a manner which I percieved as impolite, even if I was aware that this impoliteness would stem from a cultural difference.
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1:19 pm
June 8, 2009
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mocroidh
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Post edited 1:20 pm – June 8, 2009 by mocroidh
Mahi,
I encountered something similar when my husband and I first started getting “serious”. I was used to a more informal or blunt way of communicating, while he had made a concerted effort over the years to always add “please” to any request. We actually had conversations about this, and he explained to me that he felt it was just a more positive, better way to interact with people. After I heard his reasoning, I had to agree – we often aren't polite enough, especially to the people we're closest to. I think sometimes we can tend to get too comfortable with the people we love, to the point that we take their presence for granted and tend to fall into a pattern of treating them in a way that may seem natural to us, but in reality is actually pretty rude or callous. So I've made a conscious effort to try and be more polite, both to strangers and to my family, and I have to agree that is is a better way to be.
I think it's up to you whether you want to incorporate a more formal, polite style into your discourse. But maybe you should sit down with your boyfriend and talk with him about it. If this is something that he thinks might grate on him over time, or if you think that always trying to be polite is something that will bother you, you should discuss it, and maybe try to work out some kind of compromise. Just my two cents!
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8:39 am
June 9, 2009
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DJain
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Hmm, it varies. In some ways, I've been teaching my husband to be more polite, like saying thank you a lot more. But he also taught me not to interrupt while he was talking–I had a bad habit of getting excited in a conversation and cutting him off to say what I wanted to say. These things aren't really anything we decided all at once, just things that worked themselves out as we got acclimated to each other over the months/years.
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11:33 am
June 16, 2009
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mahi
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Thanks a lot for the replies.
It occurred to me recently that our different ways of communicating also pose a problem the other way around. The way he expresses a wish makes it almost impossible for me to understand it. The references are just too subtle and I miss them.
Anyways, we've had a talk about that yesterday. We decided to meet in the middle. I will try to be more polite when speaking to him and he will be more direct. I hope this works, because the amount of miscommunication in this relationship is scaring me to death.
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3:39 pm
June 16, 2009
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minu
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Hmmm this sounds like a big issue and one that I hope you can work on and through!
I am Dutch and ofcourse we also are known to be blunt. I however am not as forthright, so this has not been an issue with us. I think the only thing we have found are things that are "assumed" as certain roles that cause some problems (unbeknowest to me) and then when I he finally said something I gave him the what-for, for not mentioning it earlier.
I do find my husband is not up on saying "thank you", I think he assumes that I am just to pass him something or to bring him something. He also has a bad habit of burping and not saying excuse me or even covering his mouth which drives me mad!!!! He tends to be more polite in public, but I don't understand why that doesn't extend to me, in our house.
Anyways, none of these are deal breakers, and I think when you have two different cultural backgrounds that some of this stuff does come to the forefront.
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6:19 am
June 17, 2009
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DJain
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"He also has a bad habit of burping and not saying excuse me or even covering his mouth which drives me mad!!!! He tends to be more polite in public, but I don't understand why that doesn't extend to me, in our house."
Yeah, I'd like to know that too!! The farting, oh God, the farting. I know this has nothing to do with culture, so I probably don't need to vent about it here…but it drives me nuts.
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3:43 pm
June 23, 2009
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fightingback
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I noticed the same situation between me and V. We are serious now and he still asks for my permission to kiss me or hold my hand. I don't complain cuz I feel like a princess but it has taught me to be more polite. My culture (Hispanic) is really bad at the politness. Family always greets you with "wow your so fat" "old" tall" short" you name it. There is no politness. haha!
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4:29 am
June 24, 2009
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DJain
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Fightingback, it's the same in Indian culture, from what I've seen. My husband's family all comments on stuff like my husband's weight/whether he has a paunch, etc. the moment they see him!
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10:39 am
June 24, 2009
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D
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Haha, that reminds me of G's aunt, who is always telling her son that he has fat arms. It's actually all muscle because he works out all the time, but she still calls them fat whenever she sees him.
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11:38 pm
July 12, 2009
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RM
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I think how polite someone is more a personal characteristic than cultural. I have also noticed that the the level of politeness among peope belonging to the same culture also varies depending on the context.
Im Indian and when I call my friends or family fat/"paunchy" etc. it's not taken as me being rude. What it really implies that we are close, the relationship is secure, we respect each other, they can always count on me if they ever need anything and I don't want to make a big deal of any of the above or come across as mushy. That's why as fightingback said, we only subject close friends and family to this sort of treatment. :-)
Always, it's the nuances that matter.
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7:27 am
January 4, 2010
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kck
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I had the opposite conflict from mahi's. F's mom is not very good at English yet and doesn't really know how to politely phrase a request. In Gujarati & Hindi, it's about how you conjugate the imperative form and whether you add a form of "give" to it. So in English, it comes out as "kck, you wash dishes." No please, no thank you, no question mark. That took me a while to get used to, even though I knew she wasn't doing it on purpose.
F. also does that thing where he'll ask me to do or get stuff for him, even if we're both sitting down. It took me a while to even notice that he did that and it was a pattern, but eventually it bothered me. A month or two ago I told him that I didn't like it — I'm busy a lot, and if I'm not doing something I'm very jealous of that moment of couch time. We talked a bit, and two sides came out — to him, it's a request, it's optional for me to do, and he would totally get up and get me a glass of water if I asked sometimes. But I don't. Because I get my own glass of water. And to me, it does not sound like an optional request (in my house growing up everything was phrased as a request even if it really wasn't) so I am annoyed that I "have" to do it. It was resolved: he will respect my break time more. I will learn to ask him to do things so that I feel like it's fair when he asks me. Solved.
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4:12 pm
May 17, 2010
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blonde.bahu
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This one has been very hard for me. I'm used to "please," thank you," excuse me," and "I'm sorry" as essential tools in navigating any interaction. I'm not from a yelling family. Once, as a child, I yelled a question to my mother in the kitchen and she came into the room and told me that if wanted to ask her something I could get up, walk in the other room, and ask her. With my husband and my mother-in-law, especially my mother-in-law, yelling orders is not considered rude. Nor is pushing me aside or reaching across me to get something you want. "Please" and "Thank you" are not part of her vocabulary, nor is the concept of apologizing. Belching and farting (as loudly as possible, please), as well as not covering your mouth while coughing, are all par for the course with her. As you can imagine, we do a lot of apologizing on her behalf. I realize that a lot of the pushing and shoving is simply a function of population density, but it could ease up indoors.
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7:07 am
May 19, 2010
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xaspireonfirex
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Ah guys, I think we've really found some common ground here … the belching and farting? What a charming habit that is …
The funny thing is, I'm not so sure with my guy whether it's cultural or not … because my sister is pretty guilty too, as is my friend! I suppose that is the point of this thread – what is considered rude and what is not?
I appreciate what you say, kck, about requests which, when not prefaced by the polite modifiers we are accustomed to, sound more like barked orders. My partner does the same sometimes. I think the key must be in being open about these differences though and trying to strike your own balance for your relationship.
And if, in the instant I hear it, the apparent "demand" grates on me, I remember that moments before, he sliced up my pizza for me … :-)
Incidentally, early on in our relationship, my partner introduced me to the Japanese custom of pouring your friend/colleague's beer for them when on a night out. It's an act which is reciprocated and it seemed to me to be a lovely sign of mutual respect, generosity and hospitality – and so it's something we've taken to doing whenever we have the opportunity. Crazy idea, but who says an "intercultural relationship" is defined only by your own individual cultures …
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6:13 am
May 21, 2010
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luckyfatima
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Post edited 6:38 am – May 21, 2010 by luckyfatima
My in-laws are very formal and ultra into 'takalluf' (ceremoniousness) which are desi politeness rules/expectations of etiquette, formalities if you will. (Belching and farting in front of others would NOT be okay with them…definately not purely a cultural thing, perhaps a culture plus class thing—my dad burps and farts in front of family, too, but not in public and not in front of my husband THANK GOD!!!! I would just die!)
My in-laws, especially the older people, also view themselves as keepers of the refined ways of the elite Indian Urdu speaking culture. My ILs talk about class and contrast themselves with the lower classes very openly, it sort of feels like something from an Oscar Wilde novel. (I realize Americans have classism, too, I mean look at the popularity of that website ppl of walmart, it is basically 'let's make fun of the poor', but generally we like to pretend that we are very egalitarian, so it is startling to hear Pakistanis and Indians being so open about class)
Anyway, they seem sort of so polished to the point of being uptight and I find myself feeling uncouthe around them. Having lived abroad in a heavily multicultural environment for a while, I realize that we Americans tend to be informal compared to people from many other cultures. We cut food with the side of our fork and all that stuff. The takalluf thing, it is like this: 'You go first.' 'No, no, you go first.' 'No, no, I insist, you go first.' type stuff. Plus there are all of these other things, like if you are waiting in line to take food at a buffet, you should pick up plates and give them to the two or three people standing with you (if you know them), if you are hosting people you have to ask them 70 times to take more food, tell them they've hardly eaten a thing and insist that they have more, and not have your own meal until everyone else has eaten since you will be so busy being a great hostess. Anyway, I was raised to be rather casual without these types of formalities.
Also, I am a typical 'direct' American and it is my nature to interpret indirect people as being dishonest or having two layers. In my observation, a lot of desis can be indirect and find directness to be blunt and rude. I have had situations where I am being my direct 'normal self' but a desi person I am communicating with isn't used to this type of directness and doesn't realize that I am being direct and thinks what I am saying has a double meaning.
Especially as a woman, you shouldn't be too interested in food or eat with gusto in front of others. You should eat before you go out to a dinner so that you can show off how daintily you eat. Women of my husband's class and cultural background in Pakistan (and India) are typically very poised and refined. They are waxed, threaded, bleached, tactfully bejewelled (wearing a lot of gold desi jewellery is 'lower class' for them), coiffed with a 3x per week blow out, and draped in sober colors (for them, low class women wear bright colors and sequins) and so on. There is a lot of social pressure on these women to maintain their looks. I am into looks, too, but being a casual lower-middle class background American, I can seem like a clod compared to these women.
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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7:58 am
May 21, 2010
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kck
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Post edited 8:03 am – May 21, 2010 by kck
Luckyfatima, that's really interesting — I think I've come into what your ILs might think of as a "new money" or "middle class but villagey" family. We still all wear bright colors and lots of desi gold, and there's definitely a lot of open talk about class and money itself that I'm not used to. "Oh, you like this sari? It was expensive." And you're right on about the waxing and threading. I'd never heard of someone waxing their arms before I met my MIL. I recognize your story about food, too. I'm trying to start a trend of actually sitting down to eat with one's guests, but it isn't really catching on. It's weird how as a woman you have to know all about how to make food, but act like you're not terribly interested in eating it.
Actually the bright colors and gold have been a tough thing for me to navigate, because I gravitate toward the "sober and tasteful" side of things. The way I see it, there are two kinds of Indian aesthetics: up to a certain class/income level, more decoration is better no matter what. More formal just means more sparkly. But then it starts to go backward, as people have basically reached the limit of how much decoration they can stick on themselves, and start to look for elegance and higher-quality clothes even if they're less ornate. I think fashion in the US is largely in the second category. And desi fashion has a split personality — people who have the money & inclination to care about Western fashion tend to fall in the second category, maybe because they think a sari should look more like an evening dress, or fit in where there's a mix of western/desi styles being worn. So my in-laws have that split personality too. The aunties dress really villagey and wear lots of big yellow gold, but the counsins/sisters my age care more about the cut and style of things than about the total amount of kaam. And they prefer white gold & diamonds, which the aunties think is dumb.
Don't know if I've expressed this well. It's all very confusing to a johnny-come-lately like me.
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11:37 am
May 21, 2010
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luckyfatima
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Post edited 12:13 pm – May 21, 2010 by luckyfatima
kck: My in-laws actually do use the terms 'new money' as well as 'upstart.'
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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12:16 pm
May 21, 2010
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DJain
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That is so interesting, Luckyfatima! I've read a lot about those very refined Urdu-speaking people, but have never met any.
My husband and his sisters are the same way about looking more polished and not tacky. My husband refuses to buy me any of the more traditional desi jewelry because of the same sort of attitude you mentioned…it's too "old-fashioned" or looks "too gaudy." My oldest SIL is very fashionable so now I just defer to her taste…she knows what's in style and would look appropriate more than I would. The class thing comes out in other ways too…for instance, I have a running "future baby name" list, and my husband nixed many of them because they sounded "like servants' names" or "too old-fashioned." I guess we'll end up with the trendy babies' names of India then…I wonder what the "Madison" and "Aidan" of India would be, heh.
That would make me crazy to have to pretend to be a dainty eater. I get too much pleasure from food! It reminds me of Mammy scolding Scarlett O'Hara because she won't "catch a husband" if she eats too much at the Wilkes barbeque. ;-)
The burping and farting…I'm the only one who bears the brunt of that. My husband never does it in front of anyone else. I just roll my eyes and leave the room…
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12:43 am
May 22, 2010
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luckyfatima
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DJain: Although of course there are still wealthy Muslim families in India, most of North India's monied families left for Pakistan at partition because they feared that their social status would suffer under Hindu governance. So the vast majority of India's Muslims are very poor people who didn't move at partition. (That is a major factor in explaining why India's Muslims are so marginalized today) Partition changed the dynamics in seats of Urdu speaking culture like Dehli, which became very Punjabicized due to the influx of refugees from what became PK Punjab, and Lucknow, which is basically a shell of it's former self. That culture is a thing of the past in India, and quite frankly is dying in modern Pakistan, too, as the people who made up that culture age and pass away. Or perhaps I should say the culture is simply evolving, not dying. Just like in India, the upper classes are very Westernized, and the markers of class are more superficial symbols of Westernization than traditional Urdu speakers' manners.
Actually there absolutely are Madison and Aidan in both Hindu and Muslim desi flavor of the year names.
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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2:04 am
May 24, 2010
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luckyfatima
| | Dubai, UAE | |
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Post edited 10:30 am – May 24, 2010 by Gori Girl
Hey Admins (or is it just Gori Girl), if you see fit, perhaps you could transfer these two last posts to a new thread about baby names?
[GG: Done! the new thread can be found here (And Aditya is also an Admin, but he's even businer than I am, most of the time, so he's not on the forums much.)]
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Mat pooch ke kya haal hai mera teray peechay
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