A new commenter, Lurker frequent, brought up this interesting topic in regards to intercultural marriages in the comments section of my last post.
As an Indian in the USA; the only reason I would not want to marry a local is to not “lose” my own traditions and culture. Minds meeting , and matching interests and hearts are more important, but certainly , coming from an old and rich tradition, one would want to preserve it by having a completely Indian family, no? Thoughts?
It seems to me that there are several issues in play here, some of which Aditya and I discussed in the comments section when Lf first wrote out his comment (do check it out).
- What is meant by cultural continuity? Is it something we should value, and if so, why? Does intercultural marriage (which often leads to Third Culture Kids) automatically mean that the cultures of the parents is ending?
- What does it mean to say that India has an “old and rich tradition” (compared, presumably, against America or other Western cultures’ younger and poorer traditions)? Is it something we should value? What exactly do we mean by tradition, anyways?
- What sort of culture – or cultures – do we want to have in our own lives? For those of us in intercultural relationships, what (if anything) are we losing by not creating a monocultural family? Will our lives be richer for it? Poorer? What about extended families?
Well, that’s a lot of questions! Enough for a book or three, certainly, so I’ll just give a simplified sketch of my own views on this matter, than open it up to the rest of you.
What is cultural continuity?
Let’s get one thing straight: cultures – all cultures – are constantly changing. And by culture here, I mean “the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a society” – i.e. culture is the sum of all learned human behaviors in a particular society. What one generation learns from the previous will change as a society adapts to different conditions. The rate of the change that a culture goes through will generally vary based on the internal and external conditions or pressures a society faces, such as technological innovation, changing resources, and contact with other cultures.
For example, most Americans today would not be able to survive for very long in the wild, but the pioneers in the early days of our nation certainly could and did. As “frontier America” transformed into towns and cities knowing how to live off the land became a less important skill than those that allowed you to work in an office or factory in town.
So what is cultural continuity, if all cultures are constantly in a state of flux? Well, while everything in a culture can change, certain societal structures and beliefs – often embedded in religion or religious belief itself – are resistant to change and experience it more slowly. Hinduism in India, and the caste system which has become entwined to some extent with Hinduism, are both good examples of long-standing cultural traditions. But even they have changed over time to stay relevant, as my husband, Aditya, mentioned in his original response to Lurker frequent:
The survival of traditions is in being able to remain relevant with changing times. Even following Hindu traditions & scriptures, you can see clear evidence of the evolution of Hinduism when it responds to new “challengers” like Buddhism (Bhagavad Gita), Islam (Vedanta revival) and Christianity (Vivekananda).
So it’s not that culture continuity requires that a culture stays the same – that’s impossible – just that certain central aspects of a culture, such as particular beliefs or traditions, remain. To return to the example of “living off the land” in the US, while most Americans can’t survive out in the wild, there remains an ethos of individuality in American culture: a belief that a person should be able to stand on his own two feet without help from others or the government, just as pioneers were required to do.
Should we value cultural continuity?
I personally think that a part of the human mind craves traditions, rituals, and continuity, although this need is expressed to a greater or lesser extent in individuals. So, yes – to some degree cultural continuity is a desirable feature to have, both in society at large and in our individual lives. That being said, it isn’t the end all and be all: “tradition for tradition’s sake” is an argument easily overrode by more pressing “goods” such as freedom of choice, happiness, justice, and so forth. By that I mean that traditions cannot justify actions that hurt people or deny them their basic human rights.
As Aditya said in his comment:
I do think that the argument (or preserving traditions) are well intentioned, but the fact of the matter is that traditions must be revisited constantly to remain relevant. If we froze our traditions as they were in the 16th century, we’d still have women locked in the kitchen.
Unfortunately, this argument is also being made all over the world today to deny basic human rights to minorities and oppressed groups… from the denial of political rights to women, to outlawing gay marriage, the mantra of “this is not how it has always been” has become the central “argument” against progress of society.
Leaving aside the moral argument, which I hope all of you understand without my expanding upon it, following some traditions in the modern age is simply irrational. Traditions, after all, were formed to help societies function well – but societies today don’t exactly look like (or require the same things) as they did when these traditions were developed. Consider, for example, the traditionally arranged economy (the Indian caste system is one version of this), where a child follows in the work of his father. This system only functions as a good tradition in societies where
- The work doesn’t change much from one generation to another. Otherwise, there’s no point in having the child learn a skill at the knee of his father that will be antiquated by the time child is old enough to enter the workforce, and
- The work isn’t specialized enough that only some people have the particular skill set, mental abilities, and personality to do it well. Otherwise children will be trained from childhood to do a job that they aren’t well-suited for – there’s no reason to expect my future kids will rock out as product managers just because Aditya does.
In today’s economy, neither of these points holds true, and thus the traditionally-arranged economy should be abandoned purely on utility grounds – a society that practices it won’t do as well as a society that doesn’t.
So for a tradition to be continued today, it should:
- be rational – actually help the society & people that practice it
- be moral – not hurt individuals or their free practice of their basic human rights
With the increased pace of technological innovation today, many long-standing traditions have been ending, amid outcries from critics that capitalism or globalization or American cultural imperialism are ruining cultures left and right, leading to a homogenization of the world. This is largely bullshit.
Yes, societies around the world are becoming more similar – there is more of world-wide culture today than ever before. But subcultures and individuals’ choices within cultures are more diverse than ever before as well. People today have (more of) a choice of whether they want to follow a tradition that isn’t actually rational in today’s world – or one that violates people’s human rights, such as the caste system. Moreover, today we are able to witness some amazing creative efforts as people combine two traditions to make a completely new – and wonderful – tradition or art form. See, for example, my post on Michael Jackson and bhangra. (Now, while I’d like to move the focus back to intercultural relationships, if you’d like to read more on this topic I recommend starting off with economist Tyler Cowen’s article Creative Destruction, which can be found here as a word document.)
Intercultural marriage and creative destruction
Intercultural marriage is a perfect example of the creative destruction that, when successful, leads to both great innovation and happy, meaningful lives. Every marriage consists of the creation of a new family culture – but with intercultural marriages each individual is bringing a completely distinct culture and set of traditions to the table to be combined. Yes, there will almost certainly be fewer pieces of a Indian culture or Bengali culture in Aditya’s and my “family culture” than there would be if he had married another Indian – but we can choose to keep the worthwhile traditions while eliminating the rest.
We can keep statues of the gods around the house to remind us of our values, we can play and watch cricket on the weekends, remember that our home is also the home of our family, and have lovely saris and Indian tunics in the closets. We can also keep the best of American traditions and culture. We celebrate a secular family Christmas with an exchange of presents, watch (too much) great tv programming that comes out of Hollywood, train our dogs following Western methods like crating, and have (fasionably) torn jeans in the dressers.
It takes effort to combine two cultures successfully, and a willing attitude to learn from both partners. But I personally feel the effort is more than paid back by the results. Is it worthwhile for everyone? Of course not! Intercultural relationships are hard work. (All relationships require hard work, of course, but there tend to be more difficult variables in an intercultural marriage than a monocultural one.)
If you really want all of the traditions you grew up with to be part of your adult life, then you should probably choose something other than an intercultural match, since that’s unlikely to happen in an intercultural marriage unless your partner is willing to give up all of his or her cultural traditions. Of course, given the speed of cultural and technological change, it’s unlikely that all of the traditions you grew up with will be a part of your adult life anyways. As Aditya said,
In the reality of the globalized world of today, intercultural relationships give us a glimpse of a future where the free flow of information and people have broken down meaningless antiquated boundaries.
Related posts:
July 16th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
On a knitting board I'm on, someone asked if anyone ever feels “diluted” by being interracial or in an intercultural relationship. You used the phrase “creative destruction,” but I think “creative construction” would work, too. Good Man has not lost his culture. Instead he has gained a new culture. The same is true for me. I said I never felt diluted. Instead, I feel enriched.
BTW, I know everyone says relationships are hard work, but I actually find my relationship with Good Man to be much easier than ANY other relationship I've been in. Part of it is that I'm more grown up and have learned more about myself, what I will and won't put up with, etc. Part of it is just because we get along so well. But part of it is also that I came at the relationship with different expectations *because* we weren't of the same culture. I don't let crap slide (I've heard too many Western women excuse their Korean lover's bad behavior because “it's his culture,”), a mistake I've seen too many women do. But some things that would've made me question a man I met in America (not meeting his family or friends for a long time, for example) I already knew about and understood as Korean culture by the time we met, and I went with it.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Wow, a sociologist-philosopher hiding as a dismal scientist! Great post – although the issue of cultural continuity and “lost traditions” are relevant to families like mine as well, desis bringing up American kids.
My son (Chota Bhel) will be soon getting to the age where “culture & tradition” are going to be questions we will need to come to terms with. My wife & I will try to impart as many of our “traditions” as we can, but at the end of the day he *will* be American.
Stretching the mosaic metaphor of America a bit thin, the question all immigrants have to answer is: “If I am the red in a red-white-green-black mosaic tile, do I curse my fate and stay where I am? Or do I go back to the old country where all the tiles are red? Or do I open up and realize how much it is to hang out with all the other colors?”
July 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Creative destruction is the term used by economists for this sort of process, but “creative construction” is just as accurate. I think the economic term developed because it was an argument against the position that globalization (or any technological upheaval) destroys things (and destruction is bad, of course). Most economists then come back with the position that, yes, there's destruction going on, but it allows for the creation of new things as well – and that's valuable.
On the hard work thing – well, what data there is on intercultural couples suggests that they face more trouble in their relationship than monocultural couples. Of course, if you go in aware of what you're getting yourself into – as you seem to be doing – then you're bound to do much better than average in any relationship.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Thanks for the “creative destruction” explanation. I took Macro Ec when I was 17 and have avoided any sort of economics course since then.
July 17th, 2009 at 6:19 am
Nice post.
Absolutely, we are creatively destructing some cultural norms around here. With my husband being a Catholic from Kerala, some of it is not as obvious to the casual observer. And since we have had children, I see more Indian ways sneaking into our lives than ever before – as it is natural for Manoj to parent the best way he knows how. I have enjoyed learning from him and changing some of my Western perspectives (co-sleepers unite!) Sure, there are struggles as we figure it out. Eh. Whatever.
Commenter NotThereButHere brought up some great points about “excusing bad behavior”. It is a fine line, to be sure. At times, Manoj will expect certain things that his mother did. And I will have to remind him that he married a white girl. And dude, this totally goes “vice versa”
In general, we laugh. We work it out. It's a constant dance of differing expectations and fortunately, we have enough self-awareness that we are able to realize what is going on, based upon our own parental experiences.
That is what any marriage would need to do, regardless of culture.
July 17th, 2009 at 8:00 am
This is exactly the POV I was going to post. My husband was born and raised in the US by two Indian parents who also tried to preserve their traditions, but he's definitely American, just by virtue of growing up here. Despite this, he definitely embraces his Indian background, as well. He's very close to his family and wants to make them happy. He doesn't follow every tradition (and neither do his parents anymore) and he needs someone to tell him what to do during poojas, but he would never give up his beliefs and convert to another religion. When we got married, he insisted on having a Hindu ceremony. He doesn't know his native tongue very well, but he speaks in it whenever he can. We'll always take trips to India to see his family. And even though I'm not Indian, I think that we'll be able to raise kids that are just as Indian (and American) as he is. As long as you have a willing partner, I don't see the conflict.
July 17th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Gori, another fantastic post!
I feel that P and I both have a heightened since of our identity, culture and traditions because of the ever-present knowledge of the differences between our upbringings. I feel like I can embrace my traditions and his traditions more wholeheartedly because we have thought about how we want to incorporate them into our lives… in a much more overt and active way then simply following a tradition for traditions sake (something I've seen in my own mono-cultural home).
And I love the idea of creative destruction/construction, its a fitting description of the compromise and creation of establishing these traditions…
July 17th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Someday, if and when P and I have children, I am sure that it will be a challenge in many ways. I would love for my children to have as much interest and curiosity about my and P's cultures as we have had, but I know that this isn't always the case. I guess all one can do as a parent is give as much love and guidance as one can, and hope the child makes the best decisions for themselves.
We have close Nepali friends who are concerned about raising their future kids in America because they worry they won't have enough (Nepali) “culture” in their lives, and have started discussions about potentially moving back home when the time comes to start a family. Meanwhile I remember having a conversation with one of my international students from Cyprus who felt that if she had children in the US she wouldn't want to raise them with any Cypriot cultural traditions (even though she loves her own traditions) because she firmly believes it will “mess them up” trying to negotiate their identity between the culture they live in and the culture at home (she cited children of Turkish descent growing up in Germany as an example of having “major issues”).
Likewise, I am sad to see Nepali international student parents with young kids give up when their children decide to abandon their mother tongue and only use English because that is what they use in school. The parents will acquiesce and speak in English as well, and eventually the young kids can't speak or understand Nepali- and when their grandparents call from Kathmandu, the little kids can no longer talk to them on the phone.
I definitely feel like there is a middle ground where the “other” (culture you don't live in) culture isn't rammed down a kids throat to the point where they can't interact with their own country-peers, and where the culture isn't completely abandoned… and I hope to nestle ourselves somewhere within that middle ground someday.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:50 am
I love this post! If and when I have another difficult conversation with my mother about these issues, I'm definitely going to give it to her to read. She worries that I'm somehow “losing” my cultural traditions, or that our future children will not be fully “American.” It's frustrating for me to deal with her concerns, because I'm coming at this from a fundamentally different perspective. So it was great to see this post! Not that I think it will automatically change her mind, but maybe it'll help her see where I'm coming from a bit more clearly.
I was talking this over with my husband last night, and I asked him why his parents didn't seem as concerned over the whole cultural continuity issue as my mom did. He replied that he thought it WAS a concern of theirs, but that they were more accepting of the fact that cultural traditions often shift and change. Given their experience as immigrants (coming to a country that was totally different from the one they had left), they had learned to be flexible, holding on to those traditions (like their religion, for example) that really mattered to them but also changing or at least recognizing that some things would be different here. Whereas my mother, having never lived abroad and having a very strong sense of her roots and traditions, isn't used to having to confront this issue. Anyway, I thought this was interesting. As other commenters have pointed out, while immigrants often face a difficult dilemma over how to maintain or preserve their cultural traditions in their new home, the immigrant experience can also give one a broader perspective and a more flexible/open attitude toward intercultural experiences.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Mocroidh, I think we've said this before… but I completely hear you about your mom and her feelings about not being “fully American.” It is so frustrating, and there doesn't seem to be a lot I can tell my own mother to make her change her mind, or see having a multi-cultural background as being a positive. I'd love to continue to hear how your conversations with her progress.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Yes, this topic is definitely relevant for immigrants – but not being an immigrant myself, I don't think I'm qualified to write from that perspective.
Perhaps Aditya would be willing – although I'm not sure if he views himself as an immigrant, exactly. For instance, he has no desire to get US citizenship…
July 17th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Hi Gori
Great post as usual.
i thought about it and came to the following conclusion:
No matter where i go, no matter whom i marry i can never give up my Indian identity.I definitely want “cultural continuity” among my kids. Everyone must be aware of their roots. Of course, GOOD OUTSIDE INFLUENCES are always welcome.
For example, i REALLY ADMIRE the confidence level of average American teenagers but there are aspects which i DONT.
So its basically “Take the best…leave the rest”
Gandhiji said:
“”I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.”"
Sums it up perfectly.
Lastly GG, i highly appreciate the effort that you and other fine American women are making in understanding Indian culture and traditions.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
GoriGirl and Aditya;
I think the issue has been very well brought up, discussed and comprehensively laid to rest by both of you and the commenter's ; the hallmark of your excellent blog.
You mentioned somewhere that Aditya would not want to give up Indian citizenship ; my personal preference is similiar to that: being born and brought up in the “des”; one has too much of a sense of antiquity and inheritance to give up on that easily.
And I have seen intercultural factors at work in my family too; a part of my family is
Punjabi Khatri (warrior class) and part of family is U.P Khatri. I once heard an uncle joke to his wife that because their kids preferred having their dal-chawal with mango pickle and onions, that he had converted their kids to U.P Khatri – hood !!
Also, staying in America, which itself has a lot of local concentration of values , one can bring up children in an “Indian fashion” to some extent. The Indian temples, the Art Of Living organization, etc. do serve to act as reminders of “Indian” ness
The main point of friction between the Indian culture and the American , lies itself in the importance placed to culture and social calculations while making decisions; the average Indian mind tends to factor in social image, family considerations; whereas the average American has the credo of being a self sustaining individual and hence some of these factors take a lesser precedence to one's own will.
Thank you so much for the speed, depth and thoroughness of your work!
Wish you the best for your blog and life !
Cheers!
July 17th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Very well put across, NotHereButThere;
You are right about the “diluted ” part. I know friends who have local S.O's and both the people in the partnership feel a dilution of their “culture” ; the Indian partner more than the American.
I think that is accepted part of an intercultural relationship, BTW.
July 18th, 2009 at 2:22 am
Great post.
However: most of the cultural symbols you cite (idols, cricket, christmas, …) can be very easily combined with the others without much conflict (unless a cricket game coincides with NFL, but even that can be resolved by a Tivo).
In theory, given enough shelf-space for idols, and time to play croquet, you could claim to have a buddhist-judaeo-christian-hindu-jain-parsi home. This is more common than you might think – I have seen Pooja rooms with Egyptian gods sitting beside Sai baba (modern portfolio theory meets religion!)
But the rubber hits the road when choosing one symbol or tradition instantly precludes the other, right ? (e.g. vegetarianism, prohibition of idol worship, elders who expect to live with their kids instead of a “old age” home, many child care traditions, and sometimes even financial choices!)
Perhaps many/most don't apply in your specific personal situation, but in general maybe there is room for a part 2 of this post that addresses these sorts of tougher choices that your readers might face – choices that can't be answered with “we'll just do both”.
July 18th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Neo_indian, your point is well taken. Since, in fact, my own little family is currently dealing with 4 of the 5 issues you mention, perhaps I'll comment on how I see it working out.
First off, in general, and as GG discussed, I feel that all families are put in the position of picking and choosing amongst their own two families' traditions – even if both families are “American”. My own parents were from very different backgrounds, where varying degrees of emphasis were placed on things like education and living close to extended family, and all my life my parents were choosing to sometimes adhere more to one family's tradition and other times more the other's (or sometimes, to pick a third way…).
On the subjects you mention, I think that in practice what happens for us now is often a mix of this picking-and-choosing, and finding that you can still blend practices, even if it's not “doing both” fully all the time.
The specific examples:
vegitarianism –
This is an easy one. When S and I married, I was a vegetarian (had been for >15 years), and he was not. This wasn't really a big deal. He mostly cooked vegitarian food at home, except when he wanted to add some meat for himself, and when we went out he'd often get a burger. Then, when we decided to have a baby, I started eating meat… and now his parents are staying with us, and his mother, who's doing much of the cooking, is the vegetarian. The same blend holds true. It's worth noting that actually, this blend is in a sense almost an exact replica of his own culture and mine, since he grew up with a vegetarian mother when noone else in the family was vegetarian, and starting at age 13 I was the only vegetarian in my family – so this was sort of a nonissue for us.
elders who expect to live with their kids –
This is a much harder issue for us at the moment, although not necessarily in the ways you might mean here. In fact, in my own family, my parents very much wanted both sides of their own family to live with them when they were older – and both sides refused, not wanting to leave their own homes. Eventually, my father's parents did move very nearby my parents' place, so that my parents could help more easily. In the end, though, all four of my grandparents passed away without ever having left their own homes to move either into a care facility or with their children, just as they had wished. It wasn't my parents' first choice, but they respected their parents' decisions. Similarly, S and I hope to find a way ourselves to make our own parents' preferences work out. The primary obstacles, however, seem to lie not in our willingness to respect our spouse' sand parents' choices, but rather in logistical issues – while we'd love for S's parents to move to the US and live with us eventually, it seems unlikely to us (and to them) that they would ever want to do this, given their strong ties to their own neighborhood and friends, and how difficult it would be to reestablish such ties in a new country when they're older. In addition, as silly as it sounds, the cold weather is a real concern… and, perhaps the biggest obstacle of all, is how we could afford health insurance for them, since they wouldn't be covered by medicare even when they're older.
Ok – this is getting long, and I think those two examples cover the three basic points I think are relevant in the answer: (1) you can often blend even things that seem binary; (2) as long as you're both willing to make some sacrifices for things that are important to your partner, even major divides often aren't much different than what's faced by many “American” couples, and (3) often, logistics are actually the biggest problem (and this would be true even if we were both Indian).
July 18th, 2009 at 6:34 am
I agree with LF that this is an excellent post.
I was intrigued by both references to not wanting to give up Indian citizenship (and the implications this might have for whether one considers oneself and “immigrant” or not). This same topic – both halves of it – is one that we've discussed in my household, as well.
I'd be interested to see more on this topic – Aditya, any interest in providing a guest-post on your thoughts on the matter, sometime?
July 18th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Um, actually I said that NEITHER of us feel diluted.
July 18th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Hi sf_sg;
Me, personally I would always consider myself Indian.
I know a lot of Indians in America, who are still on H1B/green card and donot want to change to citizenship, even though it entails making a large number of sacrifices of convenience.
The reason for that is just pride, and a sense of connectedness; in India you develop relationships on the fly and there is a large place for you in the social fabric; whereas in America one has to develop a sense of identity all over again, based on one's job, community etc. Thus, I see tons of Indian families just hanging out with other Indian families even after being in the US for 20 years +; and retaining their Indian accent. Houston has a lot of that.
All cultures have a tendency to consider themselves superior to all others. The older and more “data intensive” the culture is, the stronger the clinging to it.
July 18th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Unfortunately some family members may base all their approval criteria on “meaningless, antiquated boundaries.” That's when all the fun begins! Ha ha.
July 18th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Yup, I think our mom's might have been separated at birth (in the grand tradition of Bollywood cinema…lol!) It is incredibly frustrating, not only because I hate to hear these kinds of comments coming from my mom (I mean, jeez, do you hear what you sound like?), but also because there really isn't much I can say to alleviate her concerns. I think time will be the best remedy here – once she sees a bit more of our new family's culture, and once she realizes that we're planning to honor both heritages, hopefully a lot of her worries will fade. Next time we talk about this, I'll let you know how it goes!
July 18th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Hmmm. I had a big, long comment written, but I realized that I needed to think through this matter a bit more. It'll probably become a blog post at some point, once I've noodled things around in my head long enough.
Suffice it to say, I agree that there are some big issues (altho not as many as people think, as sf_sg points out) that are binary in nature – you can't be both Christian and Jewish, no matter what the Jews for Jesus say. However, I think that for the vast majority of these issues disagreement points to a fundamental disconnect in the way you think about & view the world – which means that you probably should be reconsidering the choice to be together.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:37 am
The Turkish community in Germany has issues in large part because of the issues of Germans. Germany, particularly outside of the cities, is not always an easy place to be if you're not German. There are very few places to learn German, for instance, at least compared to the ESL options here in the US.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Gah, don't get Aditya started on another one of his “it's all about managing expectations” monologues.
(It'd be more annoying if he weren't right about it, and its importance.)
July 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Let us all know if it helps any in the next round of talks.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Glad you like it, IP. That's a great quote, btw – may have to steal it some time…
July 18th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Hi GG( Great Gori )
What is the location of the place in the pic that u used in the header of this post.???
What are u looking at so intensely????
My mom thought u are an Indian girl with a fair complexion when she saw this pic…..lol
July 18th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Also like to know, did u stay/visit Kolkata after ur bengali wedding??whats ur impression of Kolkata in general??
July 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am
The picture is from our trip to Ellora Caves in Maharashtra in 2007. I was probably looking at some architectural feature or another – you could spend an entire day in just one of those caves!
We were in Kolkata for a few days after the wedding before flying back to Bombay to visit with Aditya's sister. I liked what I saw of Calcutta, altho it seemed dirtier/polluted/poorer than Bombay. Really, it was my first time in an Indian city, and I was pretty jet-lagged & overwhelmed at the time – I'd like to go back again and visit in more detail.
July 19th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Mocroidh, I don't know your family configuration, but I think my Mom worried about the same issue for a while. I'm a white American, my husband is Indian, and we live in India. We're raising our children here, and they go to a local (English-medium) school. I think I've alleviated some of my mom's concern (they're unspoken – we're taciturn New Englanders!) by the fact that I take the children to stay with her every summer for several weeks, and we have a lot of fun visiting local historical attractions. We also celebrate Thanksgiving in New Delhi with friends, and I include some US history in the children's story-reading, along with lots of US children's authors. Our older son is 9, and loves to read, so that helps a lot!
This is the sort of concern that only gets addressed over the long term. My mom has had 16 years to see that I haven't “lost” my American-ness!
July 20th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Your recent posts, this one and the one about atheist hindu have really hit the nail on the head for some concerns I had about my relationship. I am struggling with the weird outsider feeling when I meet my boyfriend's family. I was wondering if you ever feel that-I'm assuming it's just the weird feeling because I'm not used to embracing the complete American side of me. I'm much more comfortable as an Indian in an Indian home, although I've been raised able to adapt to both. Do you think it would cause issues? Have you ever had to deal with that? either you or Aditya?
July 20th, 2009 at 8:31 am
The picture is from our trip to Ellora Caves in Maharashtra in 2007. I was probably looking at some architectural feature or another – you could spend an entire day in just one of those caves!
We were in Kolkata for a few days after the wedding before flying back to Bombay to visit with Aditya's sister. I liked what I saw of Calcutta, altho it seemed dirtier/polluted/poorer than Bombay. Really, it was my first time in an Indian city, and I was pretty jet-lagged & overwhelmed at the time – I'd like to go back again and visit in more detail.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Glad to hear you've been able to strike a good balance and hopefully alleviate your mom's concerns over time! I agree that it's something that will probably get better over the long term. We live here in the U.S. and don't have any plans to move to India in the foreseeable future (though I don't think we've ruled it out completely – one never knows!), so I think we should be able to handle the whole cultural continuity thing just fine. Given that I'm a U.S. historian to boot, our future kids will probably be absolutely sick of American history by the time I'm done with them! Sometimes it's hard to see why my mom doesn't put all these factors together and realize that she has nothing to worry about, but then, I have to remind myself that she's responding emotionally, not rationally here.
My mom's concern I think also has to do with a larger worry over how much time she'll get to spend with her future grandchildren. Given that my husband's parents are living with us, she's naturally worried that our kids will end up being closer to them. Plus, she has an ongoing conflict with my younger sister over how much time she gets to spend with her children, so there's that history thrown into the mix. Once our future kids are old enough, I think we'll definitely be sending them off to spend at least a couple of weeks in the summer with Grandma (vacation for us!).
July 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
The issue is not intercultural marriage, but rather, inter-religious marriage between Abrahamic religions ( with the one jealous god ) and non-Abrahamic religions without the jealous god
Due to the fact that in Indian society, fair skin is prized, there is a much higher probability of being outcasted / ex-communicated, if an Indian religionist marries an Indian xtian, than a white xtian, who is more likely to be exempted from disowning
July 20th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
How did you deduce the “probability”? …. Did you use any available recorded statistics at all??
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:56 am
Colleen, I'm an Indian living in India, having been born & brought up here (though traveled widely). About raising children, the issues sound so similar, inter-cultural marriage or not. We as parents are grappling some of the same issues (not to belittle the huge effort you and others like you must be going through).
On language, for instance, my son prefers to speak in Hindi (which he uses at school) rather than our native tongue Bangla. We try to converse with him in Bangla whenever we can, but fall back in line on the argument of convenience. So maybe one day he'd stop using Bangla altogether.
Again, we are used to kowtow whenever we pass in front of the statue of a god or goddess, but my son prefers not to. Of course, I can't ram this tradition down his throat and force him to (insincerely) show his respect for the gods. Similary, his food preferences are also quite different, though we still want him to have his veggies. And isn't language, food, religion, all this the dominant part of any culture? So can I say that now (or perhaps a bit later) my son has lost his cultural continuity? Perhaps not.
I think even apart from inter-cultural issues, the world itself is changing so fast that your children are a 'true' generation apart from you. And I've great hopes that it's these liberal minded children, unshackled from some of the retrogade 'traditions' of the past, who'd effortless guide our society into true multiculturism, where we don't have to search for the middle ground but are comfortable in our skin.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:13 am
@ “in the importance placed to culture and social calculations while making decisions; the average Indian mind tends to factor in social image, family considerations”. You've hit the nail on the head, LF. One keeps searching for the essence of the differences. After all, when two people take the plunge, they are already aware of the big issues. It's the 'small things' that sometimes prove intractable. And the 'social factoring' mindset which you describe is probably one of those things.
But I think this is one of the areas where the two partners can learn from each other, as GG and many commentators here are perhaps trying to, in their own ways. The American partner can teach (wrong word?) the value of individuality to the other, and the Indian can do likewise to dwell upon the value of social connectedness. Win-win situation, what!
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:38 am
Hi, Gori Girl (and others)
It's so interesting to see how everyone negotiates the marriage of cultures and traditions in intercultural/interfaith marriages.
For me, I am probably MORE Jewish from being in an intercultural marriage–we had already decided to raise our son Jewish, but since I'm the Jewish one, it's up to me to pass on the traditions (by the way, Judaism is notorious for attrition based on interfaith marriages).
But what I find really interesting, is the continued growth of schools–Korean Culture Schools, Mexican Dance Schools, etc.–there's a whole industry growing around parents who want to teach their children the customs/traditions of their native cultures. Which, of course, to me, opens the whole conversation about the definition of cultural identity and if you can make a distinction between what's innate and what's learned in a school.
All that said, looking at it from my husband's point of view (can't speak for him, can only imagine or comment on what I see–with him living in and us raising our child in 'the other' culture), some things are definitely diluted. Dillon understands Portuguese, but doesn't speak it fluently and EGADS, he's not a 'natural soccer' player! (probably because he didn't play it on the street with neighbors since he as 2!)
The point though (and I do look at it through the child's eye, from the perspective of how tradition/culture is passed from generation to generation) is that Dillon learns what we teach him–it does seem that it needs to be more conscious and planned–if we don't teach him certain traditions, we won't learn them because we don't live them day to day.
But, you made the point, I believe, (or was it Aditya) about how Hindu evolves over time to adapt to the world around us. In that sense, cultural traditions change or die both intra-culturally and inter-culturally.
As always, I LOVE that you combine theory with real life practice.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
For an English major, he sure hates to write anything… but I'll pass the request along, and mentally file the topic away for some future post of mine.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Adara, from your wording I'm guessing that you're of Indian heritage, but grew up/were born in the US? And your boyfriend isn't Indian?
Personally, I've never had the issue of an “American side” vs. a “non-American” side, since I was not brought up in any tradition besides “American” (whatever that means). And Aditya lived in India until he came to the US, so I don't think he has an American side – although he might have an American persona. I'm not sure, at this point, how comfortable he feels in an American home vs. a non-American home, altho I'd suspect he'd characterize our home as American in nature.
I'll admit that I do feel like an outsider when I'm visiting Aditya's family home in Calcutta, or his sister's home in Bombay. How much of that is due to language difficulties (it's hard to feel comfortable when you don't understand the conversation around you), and how much it's just general “outsiderness”… eh, I'm not sure.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I think when we get closer to having kids this is going to be a large concern of Aditya's if we stay in the US. In Brazil it's soccer and Portuguese, in India it'd be cricket and the regional language. Perhaps returning to Neo's point, I feel like there are two different types of cultural continuities at play here: specific, discrete traditions or habits, like celebrating Christmas, or even being vegetarian, and broad cultural influences that can only be gained by living in a particular country. The broad cultural bits, I suspect, are those that are taught more by the world at large and by children's peer groups in particular (have you read The Nurture Assumption?). There are some parts of culture that parents cannot pass down – or at least, can't pass down alone without outside influence. Picking where to live to get that outside influence is, I suspect, a difficult decision for any intercultural/international set of parents.
Strangely, as I'm thinking about it, I don't feel like my (hypothetical) children would lose anything particularly “American” if they were raised in India or another country. I'm not sure what the cause of that belief is: my own nativity of cultural differences, the superficial nature of American culture (only consisting of discrete traditions), the ease in which parents alone can pass down “Americaness”, or the way America gobbles (in both good & not good ways) other cultures, remixes it, and labels it American. Of some combination of all of the above.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Well Gori and others, cultural identity is complex!
I am a bengali married to someone from a different part of India. We live with our two children in suburban NYC. My husbands cultural identity is very different from mine, we do not even share a common language – the point I am trying to make is that our very “Indian” household by visual appearances is probably a very culturally diluted household and chances are my kids will have a very different sense of culture than other Indian kids.
July 25th, 2009 at 7:36 am
And the German's have a strong mental concept of “Auslander”; so forget about assimilating as well as in the US !
July 25th, 2009 at 7:38 am
You are probably right about this. individualism is neccessary. In India, the virtues of self sacrifice and putting the communities interests above the self are glorified. That has its place, but for sure individualism is closer to how things work in nature, and thats why the inexorable motion towards empowerment of each human being. Technology, serves to do that; 50 years ago, in India , a whole colony had one TV to which somebody would rent out a movie once a week to watch, and the whole community would turn up. We would laugh at that today, with our ipods firmly in our ears. So this individualistic motion is inexorable.
In the US, this quality helps when everyone tries to get his work done right and well, and hinders when people do not want to socialize for the sake of socializing. I personally have learnt this quality especially after coming to the US. At the same time, I regret the missed “knowledge and data” from not being part of a large group of people, like I was in IIT-BHU.
Individualism, is the most maligned as well as most respected American quality…thoughts?
July 25th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Hi Frances,
Thank you for your excellent post.
If you had to explain in a more detailed manner, what would be the essence of “American ness” . Are their any links to help define that?
July 28th, 2009 at 1:53 am
Sorry if I'm not in the same 'tolerant' and 'integrative' frame of mind as when I wrote my earlier comment. I totally agree with you that the trend towards individualism is inexorable. However, what pisses me off (sorry for the pseudo-expletive) is this: We as 'elders' (anyone above 40, mostly) are expected to encourage all positive ideas and trends for our next gen/children but, as per 'Indian' ethos, are not supposed to (even try to) benefit from it even a wee bit.
Case in point: I'm supposed to go with my child when s/he wants to be left alone and/or pursue her own calling ('my' said by way of example – my own son is too small for that). However, I am myself not supposed to be individualistic and, perhaps, go on a fishing trip on my own? At those times, I'd perhaps be branded a 'selfish' person for trying to 'enjoy' life on my own.
Or take another. My progeny can do as s/he wishes without any 'interference' to his/her life, but will still sit in my lap and expect me to bankroll her education, luxuries, whims & fancies, the works. I am NOT supposed to save some of my own money for rainy days instead of spending on those things – THAT would be 'selfish', no? And how about mature people (even non-attached) getting into relationships? How would their (grown up) children take it – for the answer, just refer to the recent movie with Rishi Kapoor & Dimple.
So you are absolutely right that “In India, the virtues of self sacrifice and putting the community's interests above the self are glorified”. And glorified they are, in every way possible. While my next generation can garner all the advantages of the trend towards individualism, I'm supposed to plod on with all the 'responsibilities'. That's how life works.
Sorry for the diatribe. But there are two sides to every coin.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Deb sahib,
Individualism is imperative and imminent in India. It’s natural, and most close to what you find in the wild.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to actually become more self concentrated in many ways.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:02 am
“Individualism is imperative and imminent in India. It’s natural, and most close to what you find in the wild.”
Would you like to give some examples of this individualism that you find in the wild? I can cite three examples off the top of my head that contradict your idea – wolves, bees, ants.
And why is your logic – as best I can deduce it from your statement – that if it’s found in the wild, then it’s desirable for humans too – a good logic?
January 4th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Of course if it’s found in the wild, it’s good for humans! I mean, I think it’d be absolutely fantastic if we all went back to living in quaint villages like you see in NatGeo, spending 90% of our waking hours getting food and growing crops, and not bothering with modern medicine or anything like that.
Oh. Wait. I’d be dead in that case. Well, then, nevermind.
<—has a very Hobbesian view of the world, at times. Both the human & the tiger.
September 7th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
I came across your blog from Sepia Mutiny. I can see it will become a must read.
Culture, as I understand it is a collective programming of the mind. It is also a changing, non-static thing. Therefore the idea of “preservation” of culture is by force making it stagnant. It needs to change, to grow, to evolve, to transmutate. If in the process some things are lost- that will be, because new things will be created too. I am coming to this from the Hofstede definition of culture.
In my personal experience, there are so many things I adopt and change and yet carry on- and so many newer things that I have learned from my Indian (but from a different state) husband, things that will alter and keep flowing and changing as we grow together that the idea of holding it still , I find rather strange. For instance the argument about language,being the visible part of culture, with Bollywood becoming so predominant, and with mobile-texting speak becoming so popular, how easy it is to write Hindi or any other language in an English Script or speak in a patois composed of several Indian and other languages. Isn’t that as “valuable” a part of current culture, as say Sanskrit or “older” culture is. I personally think that people who say that culture is the reason they would not be in a mixed-race relationship say so because of a deep rooted racism, not a fear of preserving their roots, but that is just me. Deep down whatever we are- Indian or American, Japanese or Russian, the same universal values hold- we value our families, we believe in the golden rule. THe other distinctions are surface and with love and understanding can easily be overcome.
October 22nd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
“So for a tradition to be continued today, it should:
1. be rational – actually help the society & people that practice it
2. be moral – not hurt individuals or their free practice of their basic human rights
”
GoriGirl, thats very logical. But fact is, that kids usually learn from their parents and peers behaviors from a young age. I have cousins growing up in Boston, who are very young, and both their parents are from India. They have excellent social thinking, but I have to say there is a certain emotional disconnect which develops in them when they grow up in a work oriented and individualistic society.
Honestly, even growing up in India, I say certain things to my parents, which might have been unthinkable for them to say to their parents. Kids in my school in Mumbai, also seemed to become more “rude” as the batches went on. Thus being emotionally there for people, and also being relationship focused with people, is different. The advantage of kids growing up in America, I see is that they have much greater levels of self confidence than when they grow up in India. But in terms of traditions and values and culture with the high influence of the media and the internet , is poorly done here.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am
The media & internet are a large part of American culture – but I don’t see that as a bad thing. I think the internet is an amazing hive of creativity – as is a lot of American TV programming. Yes, a lot of it is trash – but you don’t have to go far to see great stuff too.
As far as youth today, I’m inclined to take the long perspective, and suggest that adults always think that the upcoming generation are troublesome:
- From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274
More here
That’s not to say that children who grow up in India won’t have a different cultural outlook than children who grow up in the US – just that I suspect that complaints of the lack of tradition/values/culture in youth in general is simply a common complaint through the ages – and we aren’t completely depraved yet!
January 29th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
“Yes, a lot of it is trash – but you don’t have to go far to see great stuff too.”
Gori, I agree with this. My point was just that in India, I remember spending a lot of time with my friends offline. I developed social skills and emotional attitudes that helps me when I deal with people. When kids spend more time with the media, this is lost.
Also, when you read, hear, see things from any “remote media”, i.e books, the web, radio, tv, the perspective is heavily coloured with the perception of the translator. Dealing with people and reality focusses you off of that. Giving rise to the phenomenon of “nerdishness” or “geekiness” or theoretical mindedness.
Isiliye, yeh blog toh hai bahut accha…lekin agar tum log jyaada time spend karoge internet par, tho tumhare dimag affect hoenge.
January 29th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
“complaints of the lack of tradition/values/culture in youth in general is simply a common complaint through the ages”
True.
But some habits of depravity are truly in the realm of taboo.
The obvious ones being drugs alcohol and the like. the not so obvious ones being fatty food, excess carbs, coffee.
The fact is that biologically , we are conditioned to do the things that bring us pleasure. Each human beings will power is limited. Thus, if we put poor habits into play, it is even harder to focus on the habits, activities and actions that are more in our long term favour.
Thus if I develop a taste for womanizing, it is going to be tough for me to commit to one woman. And so on for many other pleasurable things.
One consequence of the sexual revolution, that you can especially see in Europe, is the low number of children being born. Also true of “white” America. I don’t know whether that is a positive or negative sign, but it is what it is.
Thus let the buyer beware, and be wary of anything that gives him a sense of excessive pleasure.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
“The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.
- From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274″
It is true that people of a similiar generation think alike. My parents and their friends think more similialry than even me and my parents in some ways.
Good job all round on the blog, GG.
Are you doing your PhD in economics or sociology?
November 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I’m a dropout from an economic PhD program. Now that I think of it, sociology would probably be more up my alley, but living the life of an academic is pretty tough.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:11 am
“So for a tradition to be continued today, it should:
1. be rational – actually help the society & people that practice it
2. be moral – not hurt individuals or their free practice of their basic human rights”
A tradition (as long as it’s harmless) can have some aesthetic value as well as emotional value, in addition to the two you mentioned. I personally have stopped making a fetish of “rational”, though at one time, I used to look at traditions strictly through the “rational” lens. Traditions have values that the practitioner imparts to them – whether rational, moral, aesthetic, emotional or any combination of them (or some other factor), which is not to say that we must blindly follow any and all traditions.
January 4th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
I’m taking a slightly different definition of rational in that quote than you are, I think. By “rational” I just mean that it helps people actually achieve their end goals (whether those are making pretty things or feeling happy or what have you). So, for instance, the tradtional use of leeches in Europe medicine were not a rational practice, because they did not help the actual goals of the doctors: healing the patients.
This is the common use of the term “rational” in my field of study, economics (economists don’t judge end goals, typically, they just judge whether a practice is efficiently getting you to whatever your end goal is) – but I’ll keep in mind that that’s not what most people think of as “rational”.
The second point I listed – be moral – describes the process of judging the end goals as good or not, and that requires me to pull out my philosopher hat, not the economist one.