Aditya, my husband, shares a few thoughts about – in his words – “Indian men being ‘forced’ into arranged marriages” in his inaugural guest post.
Having grown up in a relatively conservative family in India, I can understand the friction that can occur often between “the younger generation” and “traditional family”… and I especially sympathize with nice people like some of the readers here – or their partners – who suffer from the drudgery that often characterizes communications between these two groups.
However, for the most part I think the blame for the difficult relations between Indian parents and their adult children lies squarely on the “younger generation” -of which I am a part. I think that most issues root from a tendency amongst Indian men and women (but I’m speaking to the guys mainly, since I am one) to refuse to engage their parents in a responsible and adult manner.
I’ve been reading over Gori’s shoulder as she delves back into the intercultural blogosphere, and some of the posts out there – such as The ties that bind by Elizabeth or the responding comment by Jessica, author of the blog Coffee and Tea, and, frankly, I cannot fathom how Elizabeth or Jessica’s partners can, with a clear conscience, claim that an arranged marriage situation is somehow out of their control.
A few caveats
Before I get into this topic too deeply, I first want to state some of my beliefs that relate to this matter:
- I think family should be important to every person – and this includes not only your own birth family, but also your partner (married or not), any kids you might have, and your in-law family.
- I don’t have anything against arranged marriages, per say… I’ve seen a lot of them, and I’ve seen many work, and I’ve seen many not work… I think in the cultural context of India, they often make sense. Many arranged marriages today are not that different from what you see happening on match.com and the like. If I hadn’t met Gori – or another woman that I wished to marry – on my own, I would have explored an arranged marriage eventually.
- I don’t think that there’s anything particularly “Indian” about allowing yourself to be put into an arranged marriage while you are committed to someone else – that is, being Indian doesn’t absolve you of your responsibilities towards the love of your life.
- I don’t think there’s anything particularly “Western” about what I’m about to say. I would’ve said the same when I was 13 – having never stepped outside India, and having been exposed to only a very small amount of western tv/movies.
Responsibility
This is something my father told when I was very young: “Before Sachin (my childhood idol) goes in to bat, dozens of commentators, coaches, players give him advice on how he should bat… but once he’s in the middle (of the pitch), it’s all up to him. It’s between him and everything that comes at him – it’s up to him to make his decisions, act accordingly, and live with the consequences – good or bad.”
It’s a very simple idea – no matter who gives you what advice, ultimately, it’s your life and you have to make your own decisions – and live by them. It’s about taking responsibility for your life.
Managing Expectations
I firmly believe that the root of most domestic arguments is a mismatch of expectations amongst people… for example, I might expect GG to come home and cook, she might expect me to do the same – and if we don’t communicate our expectations, we’d be end up home hungry – and grumpy. In intercultural relationships, this is issue becomes more critical, since, because of the varied backgrounds of the people involved, the cultural expectations can become quite disparate. Thus, one of the key things to be done is to ensure that expectations of all parties are communicated and managed.
Long before GG & I talked about getting married, my mother & I spoke about what she expected in a daughter-in-Iaw, and I was clear about which of her expectations were unlikely to be met (a nice Bengali girl that Maa picked out for me, for example… not so likely). This “manging of expectations” shouldn’t be acrimonious or anything – for me, it was just a simple chat over tea and biscuits about growing up, and thinking about the future. But when I later met and started to seriously date GG, Maa wasn’t nearly as surprised as she might have been without this chat – it was already on her radar that things in this arena might not shake out the way she had intially expected them.
Finally, a few tips:
- If you interact with your parents like you’re 12, that’s how they’ll treat you. Act like an adult, manage expectations, and communicate clearly & truthfully.
- I am sorry, but nobody can force you to marry anyone. Unless your parents are holding an Uzi to your head, you don’t need to marry anyone. Emotional blackmail is rubbish – If your mother threatens to commit suicide, let her say that – she’s bluffing. Think forward 10-15 years… when your five-year-old throws a tantrum about the latest shiny toy, buying him the toy is the last thing you want to do – you’re rewarding bad behavior. Standing up to your parents when they behave poorly is just practice for that future five-year-old.
- In all seriousness, if you truly believe that your mother/father will kill themselves because you decided to marry someone you loved… either you or your parents belong in a mental ward. Life isn’t a 70′s Hindi film where the heroine’s father is in cahoots with the mafia, the government and the police just to keep you two apart.
- Ask yourself why you are “hiding” your relationship, if you’ve avoided telling your family about your significant other for a long (year +) time. If you are committed to this person, this is probably the dumbest thing to do – because it hurts everyone in the end.
- If going to India will bring about events “out of your control” – i.e. your parents will try to arrange a marriage for you then and there – then don’t go. Make it clear to all involved parties why you are not going.
- If your parents sign you up to an arranged marriage website (when you’ve told them you’re not interested), remember that ninjas won’t jump out of the bushes to kill you if you ignore the site altogether and refuse to engage in this sort of non-sense.
- This is the most important: remember that in this fiery triangle of you, your partner, and your family, you know all the parties the best, and you are the main reason this situation exists. So, suck it up and take responsibility. It’s your job to manage expectations on both sides. You should never allow the situation to escalate to death or suicide threats and prospective brides back in India if you’re already involved with someone else.
It’s too easy to blame other people for your misery. Instead you should take action so that you can minimize the misery for all parties if you’re pro-active in managing expectations, intercultural relationships (really, all relationships) are much easier to mange.
8. January 2009 at 10:52 am
Hi Aditya,
It’s really nice to hear your perspective. I am the Jessica to which you refer, and for clarity’s sake just wanted to say that the issue for K and I was much more complex than merely arranged marriage vs. love marriage to me. To be fair to K, he never claimed an arrange marriage was out of his control, though he did struggle tremendously with the idea of finally telling his parents that he may choose a non-Indian partner himself (after nearly a decade of hiding his very active dating life in the U.S.).
I find you to be very different from the majority of Indian men I have encountered, which is refreshing! Most of K’s Indian friends dated American women extensively and some even fell in love and wanted to marry their girlfriend, but couldn’t stand up to the pressure their parents put on them to choose an Indian girl. Now many of those guys have settled down with their arranged Indian wife. We do have one Indian friend who reminds me more of you than these other guys. He recently married the love of his life (she’s Italian) and his parent’s never put the same kind of pressure on him to do otherwise. K attributes their openess and his friend’s sense of freedom to the fact that his dad was in the military.
I’m curious if you share his sentiment that military families tend to be more liberal and open-minded than their more traditional Indian civilian counterparts ?
Regardless I love your advice and will definitely be sharing this post with K. Thank you for taking the time to write your perspective. I would’ve given my right arm for an article like this 4 years ago!!
8. January 2009 at 12:33 pm
Aditya,
Wonderful post. I’ve already forwarded it on! I truely enjoy reading this blog and I’m excited to have Gori Girl active once again!
8. January 2009 at 1:18 pm
This was an excellent post! I agree with all of your points. My husband basically did things the way you describe, especially the part about managing expectations and having a relationship with his parents in which he acted like an adult, not a 12-year old, and they treated him as such. Maybe we got lucky, or maybe it was because of his way of handling things, but we never faced any disappointment or resistance from his family. As a result, I have been able to build a warm and loving relationship with them myself.
8. January 2009 at 1:33 pm
Interesting speculation about military families, Jessica. I doubt this holds true in all cases, but my husband’s father was in the military, and he never felt the kind of pressure for an arranged marriage you describe. (Of course, in his case he came to America with his parents when he was 10, so by the time he was of marrying age the family had long been away from the military lifestyle.) It’s certainly possible that a military background might provide a higher level of liberality or openness in raising children, although it’s also possible it might result in a higher level of regimentation in raising kids as well (the whole stereotypical military father barking at his kids thing).
My husband and I were talking about Aditya’s post last night, and he agreed with pretty much the whole thing. He freely admitted that when he was younger and the possibility of an arranged marriage came up, he responded with a childish flat-out refusal to consider the option. I asked him why his parents didn’t press the issue, and he’s not sure – partly it might be due to the fact that when he was in his early 20s (i.e. prime marrying age) he was living far away from his parents, so he wasn’t subjected to a constant barrage of “We’ve had a nice offer from an excellent family!” It might also be due to the fact that perhaps his parents didn’t really consider him “settled” – he was still in school (still is, in fact), and so perhaps they figured it wasn’t the right time. After a certain point, I think they just kind of gave up and figured that he might never get married (which may be one reason why they were so happy when he finally brought me home!). But they tend to be easy-going, relatively low-drama people in general, so perhaps personality has a lot to do with it.
8. January 2009 at 1:34 pm
Thanks, Aditya. I definitely agree with you (and so does my now-fiance) — but I wish I could find a way to explain this to my future sister-in-law. A lot of her world view is “my life has been planned out for me” but I don’t think she realizes that going along with the plan is still a choice that she makes. I think it’s a little different for her, because she is a daughter and not a son. It seems that although she is mostly on board with the plan (she likes the profession that her parents decided she should have, etc.), she’d be more committed to doing what it takes to live her life if she had chosen it herself.
8. January 2009 at 2:26 pm
Thanks for posting this, Aditya. It’s good though to hear logic and sensibility restored to a situation which is often hystrionic. And perhaps what some people need is a kick in the pants to assert their adulthood prior to marriage and not after – since frequently one is not considered a full-fledged adult until after marriage, and the marriage arrangements are considered the last big parental responsibility. At least, in my partner’s community, that is the case.
While most people probably are not expecting a mumbai supari on their doorstep if they assert their independence, the perceived threat of knowing one has severely disappointed their parents and/or caused their parents social harm is a deterrent. Not to mention the very real possibility of being disowned. That is where my partner and I are currently at – realizing that there is an ultimatum ahead. I guess we’ll find out soon enough if the bluffs are really bluffs. What is your advice to those facing not suicide/death threats, but familial breakup and disownment?
I also wonder at the varying degrees of ease people will have empowering themselves to be assertive to their parents. In my bf’s family, minor infractions were met with severity (at least by my western standards).
Good to get a dialogue going on this. Would that it could all be as easeful and harmonious as it was for you and GG and some of the other commenters here.
8. January 2009 at 2:43 pm
Elizabeth, I posted this on your blog just now, but I really think the threats of disownment are empty threats. From what I’ve read/seen since I’ve been with my husband over the past four years, it seems to be a common threat made by Indian parents (that and the “I’ll kill myself!” threat), but when they see the reality in front of them, they suck it up and deal with it. They know that they can scare their kids by threatening such things, and that’s why the threats work so often.
8. January 2009 at 3:05 pm
Yes the possibility of being disowned can be extremely real for some Indians. K experienced it before for what seems like such a benign reason to people in my culture. The agonizing pain from being cut off from his family for several years was something I had no desire to reintroduce in his life on account of our relationship.
Unfortunately the reality is that parents are not always bluffing. To chance it can feel a lot like playing russian roulette for Indians like my husband.
I echo Elizabeth’s wish that it could be as easy and harmonious as it has been for some.
I also want to say that my and K’s relationship is living proof that even for Indians who feel trapped and have even experienced being disowned (and even worse), there is hope that it can work out.
I am in the process of writing our story, which I hope to publish on my blog in the next few days. It’s a slow process because writing about it evokes a strong emotional response for me (not to mention I have two small children constantly vying for my attention).
8. January 2009 at 3:20 pm
“While most people probably are not expecting a mumbai supari on their doorstep if they assert their independence, the perceived threat of knowing one has severely disappointed their parents and/or caused their parents social harm is a deterrent.”
Regarding that last issue of causing parents social harm: this was one of the areas my husband and I differed with Aditya a little bit when we were discussing the issue last night. My husband brought up what I thought was a very good analogy. His best friend has two little boys, and we’ve often joked with him and his wife that if we have daughters, we’re going to marry them off to his kids. But suppose that wasn’t a joke – suppose your parents had made a serious arrangement with their close friends to join your two families by marrying you to their daughter or son, and then you went and spoiled all their plans by falling in love with someone else. I can empathize how the parents might be both embarrassed and afraid that this might jeopardize not just their friendship with the other family, but their standing in the community. After all, they made a commitment, and now they have go back on that promise and appear untrustworthy. I can sort of understand why the parents in this scenario might do everything in their power to try and force their child to do what they want. This isn’t to excuse such methods because ultimately, I think parents should have their children’s happiness at heart, but merely to explain where parents in this scenario might be coming from.
8. January 2009 at 3:38 pm
“suppose your parents had made a serious arrangement with their close friends to join your two families by marrying you to their daughter or son, and then you went and spoiled all their plans by falling in love with someone else.”
From my experience, these sort of marriages have become quite rare… restricted mainly to rural India, and I’d guess that in terms of percentages, would constitute a very small number – in context of disrupting intercultural relationships…
8. January 2009 at 3:44 pm
BBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVVVOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! I am going to make R read this STAT! Thanks a million for this post, Aditya! Will comment more later!
8. January 2009 at 3:46 pm
The possibility of being ‘disowned’ is real – but still, pretty low.
If you communicate honestly with your parents, you should have a pretty good idea about where they stand before you get into a committed relationship.
From my perspective, there should only be two options:
1. You plan to remain committed to your partner – in which case you MUST stand up for him/her, and communicate as early as possible to your parents.
2. If you plan to “save” your parents from the “shame” it will bring to them, don’t get into a committed relationship… because that’s the opposite of what’s committed.
In either case, hiding your relationship will always cause pain:
1. In the short run, it causes your partner pain whether or not things work out in the end.
2. In the long run, it will cause you and your partner pain if your parents find out and disapprove.
3. In the long run, if your parents approve, it will cause them pain because you have hidden something that was important to you…
Again, this can all be prevented by managing expectations early… I’m sure even my parents would’ve been quite upset if I’d told them nothing about GG, and one day I just arrived with babies… the classic filmy NRI with – “Maa, mein tere liye bahu laya hoon”… (Mom, I’ve brought you a daughter-in-law)
8. January 2009 at 4:13 pm
Neither my family nor Aditya’s family (I think) have ever really tried to play the “shame game” (as I like to call it my head). The closest I’ve come is with my father, who has been aggravated/upset by some of the choices I’ve made with my life – including, perhaps, my marriage to Aditya. While he’s never directly said he didn’t approve, or that he wanted to me behave differently, it was clearly there, unspoken (the two of us generally don’t communicate well). I’ve addressed him about these issues before, and basically, I told him that:
A. I understood he didn’t approve, and I understood the reasoning behind it.
B. I didn’t think his reasoning was appropriate to my particular situation.
C. That I still loved him, and I hoped that these disagreements wouldn’t permanently damage our relationship, but if they did, I would accept that as a consequence of my actions.
D. Despite his disapproval, I was going to do these things anyways.
And I left it at that. He’s an adult, I’m an adult, and ultimately we need to each take responsibility for our own ends of the relationship. I can’t control the way others react to my choices – all I can do is make the best choices for myself, where “myself” includes my desire to please both my own person and others I care about.
I think I’ve discussed my feelings regarding “the ripple effect” of an intercultural marriage through a community pretty well in this post.
8. January 2009 at 7:37 pm
This post and commentary really made me think about sources of my frustration/anger. I used to really feel that R could identify more with his parents plight with this all and it made me feel really alientated. Of course he didn’t realize that he was doing this, and was in fact calling them out behind my back. But the thing is, as a traditional guy, R will never say anything bad about his parents to ME just like he will never say anything bad about me to THEM. It’s a loyalty thing to him…one doesn’t rip on their family even if they are crazy and wrong if you are a really traditional Indian. However, I was feeling really alone in the battle at a few points and he let me in on some of the ways he has taken a stand for me. I can see it is genuinely hard for him to admit his parents faults — but I need to hear that he’s on my side with this, too.
And I love the point about the Indian being responsible for the messy triange created. R tried to tell me that the simple fact he was dating me was a sacrifice on his part. WRONG! I think he is beginning to realize more that he has brought this on himself… but I need to write a whole post about Indians and deferring responsiblity
. It’s another interesting thing that can come with collective cultures…”But uncle told me this… auntie said to do this…” there are times when personal responsibility gets deferred because the group made the decision for you 
8. January 2009 at 11:26 pm
I have alot to say, just hoping I get my point across accurately.
I agree with mostly everything Aditya said. The problem comes because its HARD to crush your loved ones feelings. I myself am an avoider of many things for these very reasons. So I can fully understand and appreciate the dilemma the Indian counterpart faces.
What about those Indians who planned to go with the flow and have an arranged marriage until “circumstances” changed? Then they wouldnt have prepared the family… because they didnt know. I think I also go against the grain when I say a desi guy/girl probably should not tell their parents they are dating until they KNOW they both want to get married. Otherwise its useless heartache. Like it or not, a lot of people from any culture enter relationships without serious intentions.
I dont want to hurt anyones feelings, and keep in mind, Im fairly unromantic and realistic… So, even in my own relationships I think this way. When an Indian leaves his lover to have an arranged marriage and says he is forced, etc…. Im sure a large part of it is the enormous pressure they feel. Yes, its very hard to say NO. And all the other stuff involved, like society, parental blackmail, which of course is out of their own desperation(The point Im making is its not as easy as just saying, hey its my life and my decision. It hurts everyone and thats not easy). Anyway what Im getting to is the bottom line. DOUBT. I think underneath it all, they have doubts about the mixed relationship, and thats what tips the scales.
9. January 2009 at 10:18 am
I am curious, Aditya. Did your parents encourage you to find your own partner and utilize arranged marriage as a last resort? As Mirchi stated above, Sun postponed telling his parents because he wanted to make sure we were serious, since dating is strongly stigmatized in his community. The few friends we have that did date one person openly did so with the expectation that a marital commitment would follow.
9. January 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Elizabeth,
Not really… my father is pretty much agnostic in things like this, but my mother would probably have preferred an arranged marriage…
She & I had a fair number of chats regarding arranged marriage vs “love marriage” long before I was in any sort of relationship – and it seemed clear to me what her preference was. But because we started this discourse early, I don’t think she was surprised when I informed my family that I was planning to marry Gori – though I wouldn’t be surprised if she perused the matrimonial sections in the local papers while I was away
9. January 2009 at 1:30 pm
“I’m curious if you share his sentiment that military families tend to be more liberal and open-minded than their more traditional Indian civilian counterparts ?”
I’ve been thinking about this for the last couple of days, and still cannot make up my mind one way or the other… I would expect to this vary… I think military families are often like expatriot families… Living outside their “home-state”, with other out-of-state families with varied backgrounds surely helps people open up to other cultures…
As I am sure you know, India has various subcultures depending on region, religion, etc. And making friends with people from other cultures will likely make you more liberal-minded…
On the flip side, there’s also the possibility that like a fish out of water, the spouse (normally the wife in the Indian context) withdraws into a shell, creating a micro-”home-state”… since the children are normally the mother’s responsibility in this setting, she might gauge her success as a mother by the amount of indoctrination in the child.
10. January 2009 at 6:05 am
A nice post,this.Personally I think choice of a partner is very personal and cannot and should not be imposed upon by anyone.
I had a serious relationship that didn’t work and I nosedived into making a career (probably a reason why things didn’t work out was that some people think its the man’s prerogative to have a career and people are taken aback to see a woman wanting to get ahead in her career).
And I was already 25 so not getting any younger by Indian standards.Mum was looking at the matrimonials and now and then subtly ask me if I would look at her shortlisted candidates (which I never did
My father was more interested in my becoming financially independent and getting a career.But I guess both didn’t want to push me until I was ready.
I have seen a number of arranged and love marriages disintegrate for reasons known to them.Everyone wants a marriage for keeps and irrespective of the race of the affected parties,it is a painful experience and noone can tell which marriage will survive the test of time.
Hence when you choose your life partner against your parent’s wishes,you are responsible for the outcome of the relationship…or so you think.
I for one had a love marriage and surprisingly my mother was far more pleased about it than my father when I told them about my then partner for the first time.my father’s worry was more due to our age difference,the so called bohemian streak in my partner – for being a rock musician with that lifestyle and length of hair
-it didn’t fit into my father’s definition of a suitable boy for his ever so talented,intelligent,flawless little girl.But my mom was pleased as his lineage was a good one(he belongs to an old lineage from bengal-more of bengali blue blood !for want of a better word)
Anyway so the marriage after a lot of discussion and convincing happened and after 6.5 years is still going strong.Our son is a year old now.and my folks are very very fond of my bohemian husband.They obviously discovered his qualities as a human being that drew me to him in the first place.They understand that we believe we are perfect for each other and it is our differences in personalities,jobs,personal history and temperaments that has kept us together.
12. January 2009 at 6:22 am
While my husband never encountered any resistance from his family (we’re a Chinese-American match, living in China. My husband has never been to the States), it is mostly because my husband had long ago cut the apron strings. He grew his hair long, decided to be a musician, and toured the country with his band. It was easy for my unconventional husband to make unconventional choices when it came to marriage. He was used to making stands and being judged for them, and just wasn’t really afraid of what anyone else, even his parents, had to say.
My first Chinese ex-boyfriend, on the other hand, broke up with me because his parents didn’t approve. At the time I was struck by the injustice of it all, but later on, as I gained perspective and maturity, I realized that my ex boyfriend wasn’t really in some sort of impossible position, it was simply that he was not mature enough and confident enough to stand up to his parents, and that (as much as admitting this pained me), perhaps my relationship with him just wasn’t worth rocking the boat. My best friend from childhood, who is Jewish, experienced something similar. Growing up, she told me, repeatedly, that if she married someone non-Jewish, she would be disowned. Well, fast forward about 15 years, and her boyfriend of 2 years is Indian. Her parents have, in fact, not disowned her, and don’t plan on it. And yet she lived with this fear for a very long time, right up until she introduced her boyfriend to her parents. Sometimes the threats are empty, but we have to be confident and secure in our relationship before we take that risk.
By the way, modern “arranged” marriages happen here every day too. What usually happens is that a child hits about 25 and the parents start putting on the pressure, dropping hints, and ultimately, resorting to bribery. “I’ll buy you an apartment if you get married,” that sort of deal. If your unmarried child doesn’t have a suitable boyfriend already, you start asking around among friends and family, to see who knows of any eligible young people. You might set up a meeting. If both people find each other agreeable, the parents start planning. Marriages for practical purposes, because it is “time to start a family” or “you need someone to take care of you” or “you’re not getting any younger” happen all the time here. I’d say that actual love marriages are probably split about 50/50 in modern China with today’s equivalent of arranged marriages. While usually there isn’t any dowry, and the young people can meet before the marriage, the principle remains the same. Perhaps not quite as overt as it is in India (Chinese find the term “arranged marriage” distasteful, as it sort of implies a throwback to feudal times), but what else can it be when two people who don’t even really know each other decide to get married because, essentially, their parents think it is a good idea?
12. January 2009 at 7:30 am
Sorry, I was going to write more, but the baby hit send for me and it looks like my comment was getting long enough anyhow! There are a lot of good points in what Aditya wrote, and I hope that anyone who is involved in a relationship and facing parental opposition will know that it isn’t just India, and there are ways to overcome it. But of course, it isn’t easy!
12. January 2009 at 3:13 pm
for the record, the practice of “dowry” is a criminal offense in India (though poorly enforced)… urban arranged marriages very rarely have any dowry understanding associated with them…
of course, the practice is still quite common in villages, and in 1st/2nd generation urban families (those that migrated from rural India into modern India).
12. January 2009 at 8:00 pm
Aditya,
That said, this practice (dowry) varies wildly by region/caste/education etc. Sad, but true.
13. January 2009 at 12:32 am
Thanks so much for this post, Aditya.
I actually printed the entire thing and the responses for my boyfriend, half expecting him to either ignore it or become upset, but he actually felt it was a good article and it was helpful to read it all a few times over.
Unfortunately for me, however, it seems that I will not be able to have a happy ending of my own. We have been struggling a lot on this topic, as he is from a rural punjabi community – we are both here in Australia, his parents are still in India. But even though there is a big physical distance, their presence is still very strong.
His parents don’t speak English, I don’t speak Punjabi. Despite the fact it feels wonderful when “T” and I are together and I get my hopes up, but it is sadly not an easy task to face the uphill battle of thousands of years of customs, traditions and expectations.
“T” had an interesting response to GG’s comments, especially:
“D. Despite his disapproval, I was going to do these things anyways.”
T said he felt this was very selfish, and it was so hard for me to voice my opinions at times. T explains that it is not simply a case of this being about me and him. It’s affecting the entire family. And the response that someone else had written:
“suppose your parents had made a serious arrangement with their close friends to join your two families by marrying you to their daughter or son, and then you went and spoiled all their plans by falling in love with someone else.”
He said this is something not to be taken lightly, as it is essentially causing a great deal of friction between communities, families… it can cause a great deal of embarrassment and shame, and he feels he has a big responsibility to his parents. He feels they raised him, and instilled their traditions, and he has to uphold those values.
He explained that he knew I am a great girl, that I would endeavour to do everything ‘right’ such as learning the language, how to cook the foods, to do my best to make his parents feel loved and welcomed. But he argued that no matter what I did, they would still never feel comfortable with me… from the simple things like not being able to understand their favorite tv show, little jokes, music… me being a progressive western woman is so foreign to them.
It is hard for me to understand why men become involved with us in the first place, if they never have any intention of becoming serious. It makes me feel like a toy, and it hurts so very much.
I also have a hard time because to me, you can still integrate eastern and western philosophies successfully. I wish I could even have the option of still being an option, without just being written off so quickly just because I’m not of the same culture.
I am so glad that you and GG were able to be together and continue to pave the way for other couples.
I am actually doing postgrad study to become a counselor, focusing on intercultural relationships. I wish I could find more success stories! But sadly so far, it seems like a big minefield and at times it really challenges me to the core.
Thanks again for all your input. It’s invaluable.
19. December 2009 at 1:15 am
Check out your local gurudwara if you live in a big city – there may be a class on Punjabi that’s offered there. If it’s true love, you can learn a new language.
13. January 2009 at 12:45 pm
I was struck by a couple of things in your post, Alison. First of all, I’m very sorry for the pain you’re feeling over your relationship – that really comes through in your post, and while I haven’t experienced similar heartache over my intercultural relationship, I empathize with how hard it must be to feel as though you are being rejected for something you have no control over.
You mentioned that your boyfriend was originally from a rural Punjabi family, but that you’re both now in Australia. How did he end up leaving his home and coming to a foreign country? It just strikes me that if his parents were probably willing to allow him to leave home and go abroad, they might not be as close-minded as you and he would anticipate. Of course, from their perspective, they were probably thinking that he would go abroad to further his career, not find a gori girlfriend! But I would argue that to allow your child to move far away from you, even for purely pragmatic reasons, takes a certain amount of openness and willingness to give your child not just roots, but wings (to quote one of my mother’s favorite sayings).
You mentioned that your boyfriend feels a big responsibility toward his parents. While that’s all well and good (certainly he should feel a sense of responsibility towards them, and you probably wouldn’t want to be with someone who didn’t feel any connection to their family), what about his responsibility towards you…and towards himself? This may be a more “westernized” way of looking at it, but I can’t help but think that ultimately, making your family happy at the expense of your own ultimate happiness cannot be a healthy way to live your life.
You said, “But he argued that no matter what I did, they would still never feel comfortable with me… from the simple things like not being able to understand their favorite tv show, little jokes, music… me being a progressive western woman is so foreign to them.” I think he’s not giving you or his parents enough credit here. Of course, it may take a considerable amount of time and effort for his parents to feel comfortable with you, and vice versa, but I imagine that ultimately, a certain comfort and ease with each other would arise. You come from different cultures, certainly, but you are both human beings with the same basic needs, wants, desires, etc. I’m an American girl married to an Indian man, and his parents are currently living with us. While I don’t understand everything about what they enjoy (tv shows, jokes, music, etc.), I haven’t found their culture to be so utterly foreign that I have absolutely no point of reference from which to make a connection with them. And even if your cultures are different, you can each learn from each other – I believe there’s a great deal of positivity in that.
You also said, “It is hard for me to understand why men become involved with us in the first place, if they never have any intention of becoming serious. It makes me feel like a toy, and it hurts so very much.” Here’s where the pain you’re feeling comes through most clearly, and I’m really sorry you’ve been hurt so much. I wish I had an easy answer for you, aside from the standard “Guys are sometimes real idiots.” If I were face to face with him, I would tell your boyfriend that you are worth being loved for exactly who you are, and that if he can’t do that for whatever reason, then maybe it’s time for you both to move on. That sucks, but sometimes life is pretty sucky. But I would also say that if you do try to stay together and make it work, it may not be the easiest route to take, but ultimately the reward may be a thousand times more satisfying. You and he need to decide together whether you think that reward (the potential of a lifetime of happiness and love together) is worth facing the hardships you may encounter along the way.
13. January 2009 at 1:46 pm
Re-Alison’s & Jessica’s comments (and their blog posts): It struck me how much I do not know my own “people”. Having grown up in a fairly liberal family in a large city in India, my circle of friends and acquaintances varied. However, one eventually gravitates towards like-minded beings & perhaps, one’s views are blinkered.
While I do not want to pass judgment based on cursory facts, I am tempted to conclude that I find it *very* *very* hard to relate to the behaviors of the males in question in those blogs. My comments are not directed at the men referred to in those blogs, but the attitudes bespoken by them.
Leave alone western women, most Indian women who have grown up in cities & are reasonably well educated would find such behavior (from the men) disagreeable. Indians in cities, have moved on. And parents are oft more progressive than their children tend to think they are.
I am not one-half of an interracial couple. My wife is also an Indian, but I have many friends who are inter-racial and sometimes inter-faith. I’ve found that almost all these friends are liberal, and have grown up in fairly liberal families, often in large cities. Marriage/partnership is a relationship based on trust, mutual respect and the ability to *give* rather than *take*.
To ask one part of a partnership to commit innumerable sacrifices does not bode well for a healthy relationship. And I am not only referring to big ticket items like faith, culture and children. Marriages are made and break-up on really small tangible issues like laundry, cooking, homework, and changing diapers.
Such rules apply to and are practiced not only by men in cities in India, but it would be expected of South Asian men living in the liberal west. If one prefers to remain feudal, why did one emigrate? Such attitudes speak of cultural superiority and narrow-mindedness.
One part of the partnership cannot have a feudal attitude towards such mundane tasks. If a partner asks such big sacrifices (deceit regarding their baby) of someone, what is the guarantee that these demands/requests will conclude after marriage? After all, such demands mean that the male is not satisfied with the way his partner is, and would prefer a idealized, non-existent, Utopian version instead. No amount of change by the women will bring that to fruition.
Let us all get real, it is 2009. Sorry to have been harsh, but Alison’s friend Sharath (quoted in her blog) seemed to hit the nail on the head. And every word of Aditya rings true.
13. January 2009 at 5:18 pm
A good place to start development on pro-feminist ideas from an Indian perspective is the magazine Manushi.
13. January 2009 at 8:02 pm
When I was a grad student many eons back – before the WWW existed – there was only the internet. My life changed by reading valuable essays and threads by mature individuals. One such person was a Ph.D at Stanford and is now a professor. He has distilled two of his essays [on Indian males and marriages] from the early 90s here and here. His page containing links to other essays are here.
I urge you to read those essays.
18. January 2009 at 5:41 pm
The articles which you linked to dont make sense..I’m an Indian..and here is the secret of success of arranged marriages,,,”Astrology and Horoscope matching”
However it may sound to you..the above reason coupled with choosing brides/grooms from familiar backgrounds and localities helps for the success..
Why is Astrology so important..it can plainly tell you whether two individuals are compatible are not..Once you know that they are compatible..you can be sure of marriage being a success…if you dont believe in this ..you will never get why indian marriages work//
19. January 2009 at 7:34 pm
I am dating an Indian boy. Even though my last name is Singh I am not really Indian. well ethinic I am 25% Indian. I don’t really know anything about the cultural but I want to learn. My boyfriends last name is acutally Singh too.
But he hasn’t told his parents. And I want to talk about it but am afraid to bring up the subject. I would say his family is a traditional Indian family but he himself is Americanized. Do you think there are certain reasons that he will not tell. Like maybe it has to do with the fact that we are a younger couple. He says if they find out that he won’t care, but why not just tell them?
20. January 2009 at 5:53 pm
I come from a fairly traditional family, and Indian families all over tend to be very closed minded. And a lot of Indian men are indeed forced into arranged marriages, hehe. That said I think a lot of men, use it as an excuse to scoot out of a relationship.
A lot of the blogs I have read tend to put all the blame on Indian parents. Ok, so the guys not sure about the girl. When he is he needs to let his family know, there are no two ways about it.
Most Indian middle class parents are very understanding and would listen to their son/daughter if they would actually sit down and talk to them. Not like a last minute BOMB !!!!
I am a military brat. And comparing military families with traditional families, I think things are much easier ( I’m sure Aditya would agree ). We/our families don’t have a lot of traditional compulsions.
21. January 2009 at 5:52 pm
Savannah, I think part of the problem might be that traditionally Indian culture does not have much of a concept of “dating” like most Western countries do. So some Indians don't immediately tell their parents about their boyfriend or girlfriend because their parents won't really “get” what a boyfriend/girlfriend is. If the parents were informed, they'd either think the relationship was more important or less important than it actually is – and for some people it's just too much of a hassle.
Try checking out the blog posts in the Intercultural Relationships category to read some more about this topic – a fair number of the commenters here have had the exact same issue.
21. January 2009 at 6:03 pm
Thanks for the links to those articles. The way the practice of NRI arranged marriages (possibly) enforce gender-inequality is certainly food for thought. I do wonder how much, if any he'd say the situation has changed since writing that first article in 1990 – as far as I know, the way matches are made among Indian urban professionals has changed considerably since then – all the Internet matching services and the like. And I know that it's not always the guy going back to India for a bride – one of my guju coworkers' sister went back to India this winter to look for potential grooms. Stats on this would be pretty interesting!
21. January 2009 at 6:05 pm
“And I am not only referring to big ticket items like faith, culture and children. Marriages are made and break-up on really small tangible issues like laundry, cooking, homework, and changing diapers.”
Too true!
21. January 2009 at 6:57 pm
“Marriages for practical purposes, because it is “time to start a family” or “you need someone to take care of you” or “you're not getting any younger” happen all the time here”
Perhaps it's the cynic in me, but I suspect this is true for all cultures – the norm is just whether such a sentiment is spoken or not…
21. January 2009 at 7:07 pm
“The problem comes because its HARD to crush your loved ones feelings.”
This will probably make me sound like a cold, hard-hearted bitch, but when my family has had expectations of me that I don't think are reasonable – i.e. expectations that I do something that I don't believe they have the right to decide for me – I have had absolutely no problem telling them that I wasn't going to follow their expectations, thus “crushing” them, I suppose.
Of course, my parents – especially my father – raised me to be very, very independent, so I guess you could say that they're just reaping what they sow.
I do agree with you Mirchi, thought that doubt can be a big influence in these sorts of situations.
21. January 2009 at 7:35 pm
You guys dont get…the dude whoever wrote the articles has no clue why the marriages work the way in India…The matches are based on Astrology and Horoscope matching which will give you an insight into the compatibility of the couple…Once you are compatible my horoscope matching..any two strangers can marry…
All this love and dating is pure nonsense..it may work sometimes…but human mind doesnt have the capacity to foresee all the possible scenarios in a relationship and how one would be responding to that…
So…city breds like Aditya are getting westernized and forgetting the foundations of indian culture…anyways you couple are cute together…may god bless….
But dont forget Indian culture is more sophisticated than it meets to the eye..
26. January 2009 at 12:26 am
“And I know that it's not always the guy going back to India for a bride – one of my guju coworkers' sister went back to India this winter to look for potential grooms. Stats on this would be pretty interesting!”
I agree. I'm certain that the dynamics have changed amongst certain communities living in specific cities. But the broader validity of the article still holds true. There is a considerable element of implied sexism in arranged marriages. Not all, but a large percentage for sure.
29. January 2009 at 2:31 pm
Quizman — one of G's coworkers (female) recently went back to India to look for a groom, as well, so there's another anecdote for you.
While we were in India, we asked one of G's cousins about arranged marriages, and his response was that no one does that anymore and everyone dates just like we do in the West. FWIW, he's 19 and in college, so maybe the mindset is starting to change (or maybe we can just chalk that up to G's family being more progressive than others).
28. February 2009 at 4:01 pm
GG, if I may comment a bit of your perception of dating, I have to say that dating, strictly speaking, is of predominantly of American origin. In many European countries (which are part of western countries) courtship is the preferred term and is different from dating.
In fact, even in America, dating is more part of an urban culture, popularized by your popular culture and reality TV. Even in the 60's America, dating was a concept unheard of and even if it did exist, it was very different (from what dating means today).
28. February 2009 at 4:07 pm
Well, I disagree with your opinion on this matter, but I don't think it's a
big point either way.
1. March 2009 at 11:07 am
Jas, “dating” was in full swing across the United States by the early 1950s. The reason for this is because after world war 2 America experienced a financial boon and many people were purchasing cars, restaurants were opening up everywhere, movie houses were infiltrating neighborhoods, etc. In other words, USA was in it's post-industrial modern period, hence, a post-industrial modern take on mating evolved. Before that, what you call “courtship” was in vogue which suited the particular financial situation of the country (cheaper than dating). With more money and more things to do, the youth became more independent and hence evolved from chaporoned “courtship” with a view towards marriage to “dating”.
That is why you will also find “dating” more common and acceptable in India's metros, but completely absent in India's villages.
India's villages might have some sort of secretive courtship, but open dating does not exist.
The peoples' mindset will not allow it because they are not post-industrial. Also, there is really no place to go on a “date” in a village.
Therefore, any Indian that says “everyone dates now” in India, is obviously talking about the metros and surrounding areas where “a growing number of people are dating”, but not everyone.
10. March 2009 at 7:17 pm
I think that the Indian groom-western bride combination is particularly hard for traditional parents to accept. Partly that's because the mother/wife plays a hugely important role in the daily cultural work of the typical Indian household – conducting the daily puja's, preparation of food, drawing the daily rangoli (in southern families) are all the wife's responsibility and in many cases she is in charge of the day to day finances of the household. The man's parents fear that all those markers of family culture will disappear when the western bride enters the house, who knows nothing about the symbolic value of being handed the household keys by her mother-in-law, i.e being granted authority over the emotional, financial and cultural wellbeing of the family . The son's wife is literally the carrier of family tradition (a position often achieved after a long and quarrelsome apprenticeship with the husband's mother who tries to boss her around in the name of showing her the ropes). This is not to say that the traditionalists are right and the intercultural couple wrong. Quite the opposite – people should be free to leave their traditions, create new traditions, etc., have none if they want. But these differences in belief about the daughter-in-law's role in the family are at the core of the hostility that the videshi bahu might encounter from her desi in-law's.
19. March 2009 at 4:40 pm
While I agree with better communication and acting more like an adult as Aditya has pointed out it must also be noted that this is an ideal situation. Reality of these situations are extremely different. It is more like 'It's my way or no way'. This is mostly out of fear of what people will say – a result of codependency. Indian society like other South Asian societies breed codependency. You will be surprised that exactly the same problems occur in Sri-Lanka, Pakistan and other asian societies.
People grown up in these societies are highly codependent, they depend on each other, without each other they are as good as rocks. In North America this attitude fails miserably, you must achieve independence and self-sufficiency or you will struggle badly. All this mumbo-jumbo about “I must obey my parents” is due to codependency. The women who suffer due to this are not really suffering at all, you do not want to be with a codependent man, there is nothing worse than men who are not men , but 'leeches' sucking the life out of you.
Indian marriages are full of roles, wife must do this, husband must do this or what will people say. This need to please the masses overcomes individuality and creeps into every aspect of their beings. Indians hold on to good jobs but they are not innovators or pioneers except for a rare shining in the dark. This is due to codependency, no risk taking, no courage, no 'gusto', be safe, be secure and be boring.
The average indian male has a fixed number of things he will do in his life :
1) The all-great indian mother will spoil him till university.
2) Get a engineering / computer science degree.
3) Get a job.
4) Stay on the job till retirement or death.
5) Get married to a nice indian girl after dating plenty of gori girls.
Really for most indians this is it. The one percent that dare to go away are vilified, disowned, killed (yes this really happens). It's time indian guys stand up for what they want not what their parents want.
9. May 2009 at 3:56 pm
This was an interesting blog for sure. I sometimes search the internet, because like a few others here, my relationship doesn't always go the way I would like. I am a 48 y/o American woman that has been in a serious relationship with a 30 y/o East Indian male for the past two years. When we started our relationship, it appeared that we would be doomed to that ever hanging 'arranged marriage' situation sometime in the future. However, this past year, he has refused his parents requests to get married and settle down with a nice Indian girl. He states that marriage itself is unnecessary for two people to be committed. That marriage itself doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship will last, so what is the point. That makes sense in a weird sort of way. However, my discontent now after two years that I do feel committed to him but he still refuses to let his parents know about us. I've heard all of the “they will never understand and they will disown me' comments but it still hurts to think I'm not important enough for him to just let them know. It hasn't been necessarily easy for me in my circle of family and friends either but they have reconciled themselves to the fact that we're together and that's just the way it's going to be. My siblings are just happy that I've finally found someone that actually genuinely cares for me. It's not that I necessarily even want his family's approval. I just have a distaste for the whole hiding thing. Are there any other couples out there that have faced this particular situation with the age gap thing added to the mix?
9. May 2009 at 4:49 pm
Suzy, WOW!
You're dating an Indian man 18 years younger than you? That is really rare. In fact, in India I have never met a couple where the woman was older to the man, even by a few years, although in USA it is common for the woman to be a little older, say 2 – 6 years or so, but 18 is a HUGE age difference. And by HUGE I mean more in terms of maturity levels.
I have frequently dated younger men and my theory from the experience is – a man, up until about his mid 40s, usually acts/thinks a decade below him. So for example, if I'm dating a man who is say 32, I'll usually adjust him to think/act like how I may have thought and acted at 22…… so I don't have high expectations – LOL!
Here's another issue: in India marriage means children and family life. In USA – children and family life are optional. Many people here, at various stages of their lives, marry for COMPANIONSHIP. In India everyone marries with starting a family in mind. I mean, that is the purpose of marriage in India. They don't understand longterm relationships that do not result in children and family – unless one of the couple is barren and that is seen as a sort of curse, or at least it is seen as very, very, very unfortunate.
So your boyfriend's family naturally expect him to marry a woman the same age or younger than he is who is going to bear children. Anything else just would not register on their radar. That is the culture. So while your family or my family may be like, “well, he is a lot younger than she is and the cultural differences are there, but if he makes her happy well that's all that should really matter…..”………….. Your boyfriend's family is just not going to think like that. They really, really, really won't get it.
Does that mean you should give up? Of course not!
But you need to make sure your boyfriend is on your same page. It sounds to me like you want to have a longterm relationship with this man and even marry him. Does he want to marry you too or are you just assuming that?
Just today I was in a discussion group and this was brought up. We were discussing men, women and relationships and one man brought up that he has experienced that women “assume” things about “relationships” that the man does not. He said that often times after a week or two of dating a woman, the woman will start to say, “our relationship” or “we are in a relationship”… and he's like, “Whoa! I want to get to know you first and then MAYBE later on we will enter a 'relationship'”. But the women are like, “No! We ARE in a relationship”.
So the guy is like, “women, slow down! Don't ASSUME anything.”
Not saying that is you…………….but I know several women, AND MEN, who do that.
You need to press your boyfriend to be clear with you. If he just wants to date you, or just wants to have a longterm relationship but NO MARRIAGE coz he wants to keep the option of marrying and Indian woman open – well, he needs to come clean to you with his intentions.
Unless you are OK with being in the not-knowing-for-sure-zone.
10. May 2009 at 10:36 pm
Hi Suzy!
First, I can tell you that I'm in a similar situation as yours…as I am almost ten years older than my fiance Bear. So there is some “sister solidarity” out there for you.
Now to your issue….I do agree with Auntyji. Our relationships are most uncommon, one could even say rare.
But they are out there.
To everything that Auntyji said, I agree with 100%. But to all this I must add my own observations.
In too many relationships previous to my final and true one with Bear, I took an almost unforgivable 'back seat' in my position and needs of the relationships. I did not question as I should have done. Mainly from fear. Fear that the answers would not be what I hoped and wished for. But as I've grown older, I've realized that not only did I deserve to be happy, I deserved to have the truth.
Your relationship with your boyfriend is not some weird and unusual thing. It is a relationship between a man and a woman. Cultural, Religious and Age differences aside, you are still a woman and he still a man. And by saying this I mean…just because of the differences, do not set aside your absolute right to KNOW what the heck is going on. Don't take a back seat to what your needs are in the fear of what you think the answer will be.
Here is an example…a real life one…my own…
When Bear and I first were becoming close, I decided to tell him about my feelings towards him and asked him to honestly tell me his intentions without fear of my reaction. And he did, he told me that marriage with me would be impossible. Yep. IMPOSSIBLE. And he said that he would understand if I no longer wanted to continue the relationship. He told me his feelings of guilt and his confusion as he had already decided (and told his parents) that he was willing to do an arranged marriage(years before meeting me). I took several days to think about this and ultimately decided that by being with him for however long I had made me happier than any “early” separation would. So I told him and we talked about it and decided to continue on but to remain honest and open with each other about our wants, needs and thoughts.
And I'm glad that I did. I stuck it out, even though my friends and family thought I was nuts and “throwing my life away”. But I was happy, happier than I had ever been and what kind of fool would I be to give up that gift of being with him when we were both honest about what it was that we wanted? And to me, whatever time I had with him was a gift, perhaps not what I had envisioned but still a gift not to be overlooked. My Bear gradually started to see the reasons why he choose arranged marriage no longer applied because he was learning and growing by his friendship and closeness with me.
And now we are to be married. And yes…his parents are not thrilled with the idea. And yes, it has been extremely hard. But we have had each other to support our emotions. And we've had each others openness and honesty to enrich it.
I guess what I'm saying is…mostly the answer that you fear is the RIGHT answer. Whether it's what you want to hear or what you don't. If you truly value your relationship with your boyfriend and you truly value yourself, talk to him. Let him know how you are feeling, be open and honest with your fears, try to do it without placing blame (on yourself or him). Perhaps…just perhaps….he doesn't even realize that this issue bothers you so very much. By speaking to him about it, you might just surprise yourself.
I wish you so much luck and always know that we are all here to support you. >:D<
11. May 2009 at 3:03 am
Hi suzy,
I'm facing the same situation as u do, i'm 45 years old n my nepali bf is 30 n hiding it for 2 years now to family n friends. I feel miserable these days caus me too i found someone who really cares for me n i don't want to loose him i also have a distaste of the whole hiding thing. So i'm here for u too if u want to talk about it don hesitate.
11. May 2009 at 8:29 am
Maya I could totally relate to your situation.
Im a Malaysian, a Muslim, but my other half is a Nepali, a Hindu by religion, growing up in a rather straight Brahman's family. We've been together for more than 2years now. the thing that has been bothering me is the fact that even though we've talked about being serious, about him converting into Muslim and settling down here in Malaysia, his parents still have no idea of our relationship. it bothers me so much knowing that i will never be welcomed into his family.
GoriGirl, u know u're lucky. =)
11. May 2009 at 8:43 am
Yes, I realize I'm very lucky to be welcomed by Aditya's family. But, why do you think that you'd never be welcome by your partner's family? Have they said something in the past, or are you just guessing?
(By the way, this would be a great discussion to take to the forums so that it won't get lost at the bottom of the comments)
11. May 2009 at 9:17 am
the idea of an upper-caste brahman 'ladka' being mingling with a muslim 'ladki' (so called untouchable for being a meat-consumer) is so foreign, that his traditional parents can never fathom. my bf has once mentioned to me that his father wouldn't even allow him to talk to a muslim. in fact in his entire family, there is no one who dares to break the rules, except for his uncle, who decides to marry a muslim ladki, even then, she is a desi. not a ladki who is thousand of miles away from their country.
because of this, we used to have lots of endless argument. me being tired of waiting him to break the news to his parents. him being jittery in telling the truth, not wanting to disappoint them. but reading your posts have helped me a lot in understanding what it takes to be in this intercultural relationship.
thanks GoriGirl =)
11. May 2009 at 9:27 am
Just wanted to add that I have known a case where a 50 year old American woman married a 25 years young Indian man straight from the village. When she first met him she actually thought of introducing her same aged daughter to him! But he “fell in love” with her (the mom). They married. Two years into the marriage she was looking for a second wife for him, in order to bear him a child and give his mother the grandchildren she craved from her beloved son. So he also married a young Indian woman from his village. Everyone ended up coming to the USA. It was a big dramatic soap opera and many things happened (too many to elaborate here). He is living with his younger wife and kids in the same town as his first older wife, but she decided a long time ago that she preferred to live separately and just be “friends” with the couple – there were too many differences; cultural, and their visions and goals for life were very different.
11. May 2009 at 9:29 am
Hey Suzy! I don't think I can add anything more to the topic than what's been already said, especially since I don't have that sort of age gap in my relationship. However, I hop what the others have said have been helpful!
….
Wait, thought some more, do have a bit to add. It seems to me that there are three main things that you need to consider, both for your own relationship, and in dealing with family issues:
1. the fact that it's intercultural
2. the fact that there's an age gap
3. the fact that the woman is the older of the two.
Spelling it out like that might make it seem like there are three hurdles to overcome, but I think it's important to focus more on the steps that you need to take in considering each three issues. All of them might affect not only his family's perception of your relationship but also how your relationship progresses in and of itself. I'm a big believer in sitting down together and talking these things out step by methodical step – even if it seems really anti-romantic
P.S. – this sort of conversation is exactly why I started the forum. If you go there & start a thread on age-related issues, I'm sure you'll be able to get more people's advice & anecdotes than you will at the bottom of a comments thread.
11. May 2009 at 9:31 am
I'm glad they've been helpful!
11. May 2009 at 9:36 am
Muna,
My bf and me have been talked about the fact that i'll never be welcome in his family but it don't bother me anymore. My fear is that his parents would force him to marry if he goes back and i know he will someday because he is only temporary here as a student. He told me he would try to stay here no matter what till the day he dies but still i worry and i will never survive it if it had to happen. Our story is not so simple, his family is old religious Hindu and rather straight too and he's from very important cast. I would like to tell my story but i don't dare because we are not sure of anythig for the moment. Are we safe here because i really need support and advice? All i can say is that it was love at first sight for both of us and each time we heve to say goodbye is a really difficult moment for him as for me (we are not living in same country but not so far).
Ya may be i'm lucky i mean to say when i'm with him i feel so but when he's away i feel miserable lol.
So anybody who could help me just please do i will appreciate a lot.
11. May 2009 at 9:44 am
Ya my bf told me his parents would never accept i'm more than 10 years older than him but he also told i really deserve to be happy and that i'm a really good woman that i never have to doubt about it so what is the problem? Culture? Narrow minded society? I don't know but i really have hope and faith in our relationship….if he don't have to marry
11. May 2009 at 9:47 am
I've started a forum thread on this topic here, by the way.
11. May 2009 at 9:48 am
Maya, I've started a forum thread on this topic here, by the way.
11. May 2009 at 9:49 am
Suzy, I've started a forum thread on this topic here, by the way.
11. May 2009 at 9:49 am
Auntie, (
), I've started a forum thread on this topic here, by the way.
11. May 2009 at 9:52 am
Maya,
I was in the same situation as yours. It was love at first sight for us too. ever since we have decided to be together, the first set of paranoia has rushed into me, making me crazy with the thought of loosing him. in the earlier stage of our relationship, even though it was such a bliss, you know the honeymoon kind of bliss, of getting to know each other phase, I was not fully satisfied with the way our relationship goes. I love him, and I know he loves me too but there's a thought been nagging at the back of my head, telling me that i'm going to loose him, just because we're different, and he comes all the way from different country. However, now that i've overcome the fear of loosing HIM, i'm able to relax a bit. only there's another thought that comes thudding into my mind-that his family wont accept me!
Maya,
Like you, i need help too.
S.O.S!
11. May 2009 at 9:57 am
Aurora, I've started a forum thread on this topic here, by the way. I hate to see everyone's comments get buried down here!
12. May 2009 at 6:32 pm
well said, GG. Andhra Bhoja, are you kidding me? You think the horoscope/biodata stuff ensures compatibility?! Right. Because Astrology is a real science and has anything to do with the personalities of 2 adults. Sigh.
12. May 2009 at 8:53 pm
I'm not Indian so I'm not invested in their culture, but even I was surprised how ACCURATE vedic astrology is. It can be mindblowing.
I do think that bio-data and astrological compatibility, while not able to ensure anything 100%, is indeed HELPFUL.
Nothing in this world can be guaranteed 100% anyway. But some things are more reliable and more certain than others.
12. May 2009 at 9:04 pm
You're free to believe whatever you want to, of course, but astrology – of all sorts- is just generalities, a good ability to read others by the astrologer, and a large heaping of bunk. I guess you could say I fall on the scientifically-verifiable side of things…
11. June 2009 at 10:51 am
i am an englisg girl and i have been in love with my afghan boyfriend for 7 years, for all of this time i have had it at the back of my mind that his family wont accept me. now that has become reality he has just told me his mother has arranged him a marriage and he must return. she will not accept me. we are utterly devastated. i cannot cope with this and i am heart broken. i waited and waited for him to commit to me as he promised and in the end he says he has to do as his family wish. i cannot get over the pain it has caused and he now says he is going to kill himself, please someone help…..
11. June 2009 at 10:53 am
i mean english girl…….:(
11. June 2009 at 11:12 am
Julie, he wont kill himself. He will return to India and get married to the woman his mom picked for him. And you will nurse a broken heart for a few months but eventually you will get over him and move on with your life as well.
11. June 2009 at 11:32 am
yeah you are probably right, it is so hard for me though as i trusted him all this time and we have had long discussions about this, we truly felt we were made for each other, thats why we let it go on for so long. thankyou for your comment .
11. June 2009 at 12:11 pm
You should have done some googling before you got involved with him. There are websites and forums online that discuss this very same thing.
11. June 2009 at 12:22 pm
*rolls eyes*
“Yeah, dude, so I was going to date this guy I met who was really cool and stuff. But then I thought – wait, he's a America dude, what if there are American guys who do bad things?? So then I googled around about white guys in relationships, and found out that some of them cheat and lie and others can be really clingy and annoying. There were whole forums and websites talking about it! So I decided that I shouldn't date the guy I met, since he's American, just like all those other guys that random people on the internet complained about.”
11. June 2009 at 12:59 pm
we fell in love, you cant help who you fall in love with, he has been the love of my life, thankyou “rolls eyes” you understand! you just wouldnt google such a thing
11. June 2009 at 1:07 pm
Americans who do not come from Desi backgrounds seldom have the arranged marriage issue hanging over their heads. Of course, there are other issues to deal with, and there are PLENTY of websites and forums discussing those, but for women who get serious with Desi men only to find that they will not follow their hearts but go with Mama's plans instead, it hurts.
Obviously you have not had that experience so I wouldn't expect you to empathize with Julie or know what to say to her.
But the path has been laid out by others who have trod that path before her and she could have taken advantage of their experiences instead of coming onto a site owned by someone who has experienced the opposite.
Obviously this site is not going to help her now and it probably would have not helped her before, because that is not what the site is about.
Plus, Julie did not “just date” the dude. She wanted to had a long term relationship with him and wanted to marry him.
Dating desis? Go for it!
Falling for them and nursing forever after fantasies? Check out some websites first.
And that goes for whoever you date, including Afghanis, who count as “desi” in my book.
(Draupadi was supposedly from that area)
I mean lets be real. Dating someone who's parents you have never met (in 7 years!) and who live in a far away country where the marriages are arranged, just ups the risk factor in an already risky arena (dating and falling in love).
Go bramachari! It saves you a lot of drama!
11. June 2009 at 1:11 pm
Dammit, I started dating G before Google was even around…I wonder if InfoSeek would've given me a warning about dating brown dudes?
11. June 2009 at 1:11 pm
just ralised its GoriGirls comment i appreciate, thanku
11. June 2009 at 1:14 pm
Before falling in love is the time to check out the websites, Jules.
They will tell you the possible scenarios that you might want to prepare yourself for down the line, such as the one you find yourself in now………………..him flying back home to marry Mommie's choice.
They advise women dating men from such cultures to continuously ask to speak to the parents on the phone. Gauge his reaction when you ask such things. See how long it takes before the first request until he actually lets you speak with his parents on the phone, etc, etc.
These are all clues as to what awaits you.
But nothing awaits you now, you've already met with the final curtain call.
Well, now you know what to possibly expect next time and you will a little wiser for it.
Women, its 2009. Watch your own backs!
11. June 2009 at 1:26 pm
i mean thank u GoriGirl for your comment.
11. June 2009 at 1:51 pm
Yup, I can't empathize with people in a bad situation at all if I haven't experienced the same situation.
And, dear lord, I would never have dreamed of falling for Aditya before checking out some websites, and finding out the path that's been laid out by others. Sheer craziness to think otherwise! After all, I know that you can judge what I'm going to do in a personal relationship by reading five or six stories of what other Americans girls have done in their personal relationships. I mean, I'm super-similar in tastes and behaviors to an African-American Evangelical Christian volleyball player living in Alabama and studying pre-med – just as similar as Aditya is sure to be to a Christian Keralite who grew up just down the road from a hill station and dreams of making it big in Bollywood.
Regarding risk, well, I'm of the start-up mindset. “If you are not willing to risk the unusual, you will have to settle for the ordinary.”
11. June 2009 at 2:22 pm
Hi Julie…
GG and MMDP both have good and valid points. Truly, neither of them are wrong. MMDP was right when he said that there are instances of this happening to other people. And admitting it doesn't make the Desi community or the people who fall in love with them wrong. GG is right when she says that each story is different and you cannot apply a rule to people just because they are from the same heritage as an offender.
Each story is different. Each situation is different. There are ways you should have protected yourself better, but to be honest they had nothing to do with culture or tradition. Just common sense, which…let's be real here…goes flying out the door when your in love with someone.
I know what you're going through, before meeting my fiance Bear, I was in a similar situation as you except mine didn't last quite so long. Only about 11 months. But it hurt nonetheless.
It's ok to hurt and it's ok to cry. You should. It will take some time for you to heal. But you will heal and you will go on and you will meet the person who is truly for you. See, my philosophy is this…if your bf was truly “the one” he wouldn't be going home to marry someone else. That does NOT make him a bad person…not at all, he just wasn't as strong as he thought he would be when the situation came up. Sometimes we're are wrong about ourselves and what we would do in a situation. Perhaps you shouldn't have waited with him for so long…but really that is your choice and only you know what's right for you. And I believe that everything has a reason…something is learned from everything.
For me, I learned from my previous relationship more about the culture and the nature of the society, traditions and religion from my ex. I grew as a person. I think this made me stronger so that I was in the right place in my life when I met Bear.
Bear…who IS my true love.
Does that make sense?
Don't worry, it will hurt for a while. But we're here for you, you aren't alone. Take care and keep in touch.
~Aurora
11. June 2009 at 2:42 pm
Regarding risk, well, I'm of the start-up mindset. “If you are not willing to risk the unusual, you will have to settle for the ordinary.”
Seems you done that anyway!
11. June 2009 at 2:45 pm
I get the feeling from this comment & your first one in the atheist post that you think you know me better than you actually do.
*shrug*
12. June 2009 at 1:11 am
my boyfriend told me everything when we first got together about his family, we decided it was worth fighting for and have tried everything to stay together, he told his mother he was marrying me and told her DONT arrange a marriage for me. she ignored him and went ahead anyway and arranged it. he is now saying if he doesnt return to marry this person the families will be at war and murders will be committed. he is really suicidal at this time and his life has been ruined. i knew what i was getting myself in for when we got together as we have always been honest with each other, so i didnt need to look at websites. i will suffer now but i would have rather spent these wonderful 7years with him than to of read up about what could happen and ended it years ago.
12. June 2009 at 1:17 am
thankyou aurora your comments bring comfort to me and your story that you have experienced is so similar to mine, i hope my happy ending comes as he hasnt bought that ticket home yet and i am helping him through this, i will always love him no matter what he chooses. julie
12. June 2009 at 8:58 am
“she ignored him and went ahead anyway and arranged it. he is now saying if he doesnt return to marry this person the families will be at war and murders will be committed.”!!!!!!!
What?!?!?
12. June 2009 at 10:02 am
yeah thats what is happening as crazy as it ay sound.
12. June 2009 at 10:15 am
my life is like a book like this cant be happening to me, i know it all sounds crazy, do you think it is because it is afghanistan???? is this what happens when a man refuses to marry a woman chosen for him???
13. July 2009 at 10:04 am
Hi, I'm just now reading this one. I've found myself awestruck by how open your parents are about this. My parents are very very very very very strict about this whole “dating an Indian guy” thing, but just as lenient on every other issue, like my education or traveling or going on crazy adventures. It's just this one thing. So I must point out, that a lot of this is different for women. Indians treat men and women differently, especially in terms of marriage. You have wonderful parents, but how much of these frank discussions over tea were made possible because you were the son and not the daughter?
-Priya
14. July 2009 at 10:11 pm
Priya – welcome to the blog… I think you bring up a very valid issue – the treatment of boys vs girls when it comes to intercultural relationships from the perspective of Indian parents…
For my own parents, I don't think there's much difference in how they would treat their son vs their daughter… i have an older sister, so I have seen this – if anything, my parents always favor the girl child – GG now has the favored youngest girl position…
For others though, it'd be naive for me to imagine that the treatment of the two sexes are the same… the “moral” latitude offered to boys ( as opposed to girls) is criminal in my opinion. However, since I don't have too much experience in directly dealing with intercultural marriages where an Indian girl is involved, I wouldn't want to comment too much…
You may find the latest posts interesting as my parents talk about their perspective on daughter vs daughter-in-law. and their expectations of their children's spouses.
15. July 2009 at 12:13 pm
Hmmm…. Just because a girl is not allowed to do something either by her parents or by society does not mean she will not do it. Forbidden fruit and all that!
I know of many Indian girls that have gone against the wishes of their parents and family in all manner of ways..I'm sure you guys do too!
In fact, I would argue that the parents actually know that their lovely little bachi is going to leave home one day…..but their son(s) will be expected to be around for them. So, as a result they give them more latitude. They certainly dont want their daughter around unmarried for whatever reason.
Another thing to bear in mind is that Indian parents are aware of the fact that society will not look too kindly if their daughters are given too much latitude and get up to mischief. This will have a very bad and lasting consequences on the whole of the family. This one I can vouch for personally.
16. September 2009 at 11:46 pm
Edited: It violates copyright on an article to replicate it in full, Shyamsunder. And stereotyping is not allowed on this blog. You’ve already been warned about this. Don’t do it again or I will ban you. – GG
7. September 2009 at 11:32 pm
Thank you!, This is exactly what I think.
15. September 2009 at 8:06 am
What about an Indian guy who won’t marry a non-Indian because he doesn’t want to let his parents down after he had let them down his entire life?
30. September 2009 at 8:55 am
Factt: Also noted on BBC
“Almost 85% of Marriages in India are arranged but divorce rate in India is less than 2%”
Even if you do love marriage later you think oh he/she has changed No body is perfect.
Also In India parents are quite close to their children (unlike here in western world) therefore parents are aware of their children’s choice.
Its your perception how you look at it.
1. October 2009 at 10:19 am
2% divorce rate does not mean that 98% of marriages are successful.
In the vast majority of cases, in India, the wives are totally completely dependent on their husbands from a financial point of view, and there is significant social stigma attached (especially for women).
Given the amount of (reported and unreported) domestic abuse in many marriages in India, I wouldn’t read too much into the 2% divorce rate… millions of women would be happier (and safer) with a higher divorce rate.
9. May 2010 at 9:07 am
@Aditya
“In the vast majority of cases….Millions of women…” etc. This is just speculative ingratiating BS. Your perceptions are that of your own sub-caste/community, you’re not an authority on India society.
Something that irks me is the perception of the average Westerner that the role of an Indian women is that of a prisoner, thanks for perpetuating the myth!
17. October 2009 at 2:39 pm
Hi Aditya and GG.
Very useful post. I especially like the idea of not dealing with them like you are 12 and the clarifying expectations on all sides. We’re in a similar situation except that I came along after an American divorce (him/me) and a stab at setting up a possible assisted marriage (him + parents. So while I exist (for parents), the dealing with the possible assisted marriage thing has yet to resolve itself. The 12 year old (not me) feels badly about disappointing others (parents +), but can’t seem to complete that last step out of fear of deeply hurting parents ( who want an Indian extended family but haven’t lived that way themselves for their entire married life which is being lived outside India). So, meanwhile, we suit each other very well, except for this thing. Coming across your post was very helpful and explained somethings.
BTW, Happy Diwali
26. October 2009 at 10:42 am
I’m glad Aditya’s post was helpful, Rebecca. Perhaps if enough of you chime in, he’ll write another one.
26. November 2009 at 9:24 pm
It’s nice to see that some of the interracial relationships out there have been successful (especially between a Caucasian and a person of Eastern origin.” I also, am a product of an interracial relationship (half-persian and half-indian) but I am sometimes, intimidated by the thought of it. It’s great when it works. But when it doesn’t (and when it leads to divorce), it can be a nightmare (especially amongst highly rich people as they will be spending a whole lot on alimony).
But once again, it’s nice to see that you are a strong couple
31. December 2009 at 11:41 pm
Look, I don’t want to sound rude, but interracial marriages neither work (in most cases) nor – and speaking here as an Indian – is good for maintaining our Indianness (culture). I also feel some Indians, particularly those who are of darker shades of brown, have a huge complex and want fairer mates. They say love happens by chance, but I’m not so sure about this as some Indians in the West I feel actively seek out white partners.
While interracial dating and marriage is very common with other racial groupings in the US (particularly East Asians), Indians have for long been very ethno and culture-centric people who have prided on their Indian values and systems. However, the current generation living in the West have become somewhat delusional.
Again, I don’t wish to bring this down to colour, but you will notice Pakistanis, who are generally fairer and taller than most Indians, rarely marry out even though most Pakistani men and women would be considered more good looking than their Indian counterparts. This I put down to the fact that Indians have sometimes a huge complex on the skin colour issue.
No bad feelings, however, and wish you all the best in your married life.
21. January 2010 at 2:45 pm
No worries, no bad feelings here. Just some eye rolling.
3. April 2010 at 9:41 pm
It is pluralistic and elitist thinking like M Monsur’s that leads to more and more difficulty in for Indians to properly assimilate into Western cultures. Monsur, you are correct in your proposition that Indians are pursuing relationships with people who are not in their same skin color class, but honestly, to but it down as a base hierarchical dichotomy not only demeans Indians in the US, but it also insults women who do pursue a long-term relationship with Indian men. The difficulty of an interracial relationship is well worth the risk of pursuing such a relationship, considering that the alternative for many Indian men is to get an arranged marriage, which is truly a legitimized form of slavery, for both man and wife. Honestly, M Monsur, if you haven’t really pursued a long-term relationship, then you have no jurisdiction nor authority to make such wild and over-generalized accusations and assertions.
12. June 2010 at 8:10 am
My husband and I are from Singapore. He is Tamil-Telugu (Both his parents are also from Tamil-Telugu union). I am a Chinese Peranakan (a blended culture consisting of mainly Chinese, Malay, Indian, Portugese, British and Dutch influences). We have been married for 9 years and have a daughter and son.
On my father in law’s side of the family, 2 of his nephews married Caucasian American women, C annai and his wife J have 5 children. R annai and his wife H have 4 children. Both of them live in the US.
M annai married N, a Singaporean Pakistani (from a family of professionals) who converted to Christianity (imagine the dismay at that point of time, but her family got over it). They have 2 adult daughters (1 daughter is dating a Caucasian) and a son.
J annai (Hindu) married a Singaporean Tamil(Catholic) raised their children Hindu but go to church too. Their son V, married a Tamil/Punjabi lady and they have 2 sons (They live in Australia). Their daughter married a Caucasian Aussie and are living in Australia.
G annai married a Tamil-Chinese Thai from Kedah, Malaysia. They have 3 sons and their oldest son just married a Singaporean Chinese.
As for my mother in law’s side of the family, One brother married a Malay Muslim divorcee with 7 children (if I recall clearly) but have no biological children. In her family, there have been 2 divorces. One of her brothers was married to a Portugese-Chinese, that marriage ended rather quickly. The other is her niece who was married to a Tamil.
My point in short is that, marriage is what you make of it. It is about two committed mature adults making marriage work regardless or ethnicity or religion. I cannot comprehend as to why one would feel less of Indian or Chinese or whatever ethnic group you are from. We are of the human race, I bleed red and so do you.