Aasif Mandvi can’t do a very convincing “Indian” accent (at least to my ears), but his delivery is typically spot on – and this bit had be cracking up. I’ve always loved how the Daily Show dealt with “minority issues”. They aren’t afraid to take on the discussion seriously, and they aren’t afraid to skewer that same discussion when it turns ridiculous as it so often does in our media. They don’t hit the mark every time, but when they do, it’s brilliant, as when Stewart, reporting on Obama’s race speech, said, “”and at 11:00 on a Tuesday, a prominent politician spoke to Americans about race as though they were adults.”
Hat tip to Ennis over at Septia Mutiny, who is wondering if Gupta’s nomination gives Mandvi a bit of job security for a few years.
11. January 2009 at 6:23 pm
Hey GG,
I finally got my new laptop up and running, and no longer have all the issues I was having when I wanted to visit your webpage. This is fantastic for me
ara0062
11. January 2009 at 9:21 pm
Hey Ara – glad to see you back again, and congrats on the new laptop! Did you ever figure out the problem, or was the site just loading really slowly for you? I need to do some work in the backend of the site soon, and probably a bit of a redesign – or get Aditya, Mr “I am not a web designer, Gori, I’m a product manager ” to do it for me.
12. January 2009 at 2:29 am
Slumdog for the WIN!!!
12. January 2009 at 3:39 am
I thought this bit on The Daily Show this week was really hilarious…spot on work by Mandvi!
On a somewhat related note, congrats to the cast and crew of Slumdog Millionaire for their Golden Globes wins tonight! I loved that Anil Kapoor grabbed some screen time with both hands, and that they got Shahrukh Kahn to present the film. I also noticed Karan Johar in the audience and wondered what the heck he was doing there – I don’t think he was involved with Slumdog Millionaire, was he? Anyway, go Desis!
12. January 2009 at 1:36 pm
Loved SD!!!
14. January 2009 at 10:52 am
My favorite Daily Show take on race is the clip: ‘Black Liberal Guilt’ right after the election
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=209423&title=black-liberal-guilt
15. January 2009 at 11:03 am
Technophopicgeek, that’s also a really great clip. Love your screen name, btw.
18. January 2009 at 1:38 pm
I just found this website recently!! you are amazing in your openness to the Indian culture…!!
Understanding Karma, reincarnation & Brahman(Brahma is different) can take you a long way in understanding the Indian culture. Once you get those, no conflict will last.
Wishing you lovely years of married life!!!
18. January 2009 at 11:41 pm
I think it was just my old computer to be honest. My old laptop was about 6 years old.. and still running well for the most part.. it’s outer components were falling apart though. Although, on occassion, when I started it up, I wouldn’t even get to a blue screen of death, but a straight black screen.. and then nada. I’d have to hit the power button and start over again LOL.
19. January 2009 at 1:16 am
They are both great clips, thanks.
22. January 2009 at 7:06 am
Thanks, GG. Keep up the good work on this web site. It has inspired/helped me and my own gori girl a whole lot
23. January 2009 at 12:26 pm
Gori Girl, I know this skit is in jest, but as a note, Gupta's parents were engineers for the Ford Motor Company.
Whats my point ?
That the general stereotype about immigrants moving to America, sacrificing every thing and escaping repression, doesnt really apply to most Indians. Most Indian migrants to America are highly skilled and move to America to improve their careers, quality of life and for the social prestige that it brings them back home. I have done the same. I had done a post on this based on research at Long Island University.
Indeed most of the migrants are upper caste Hindus who have been systematically persecuting the mass of the population for centuries. I have met just one lower caste person in 5.5 years in the US. India and Pakistan have the same Muslim population but the number of Pakistani Muslims here is many many times more the number of Indian Muslims.
Of course many migrants from India are from poor backgrounds and minorities, but their kids also dont do as well. So this 'model minority' stuff is all hogwash as far as I am concerned. I dont know why mainstream America is buying this nonsense.
Sorry about the rather long comment.
23. January 2009 at 1:07 pm
Hi Vikram – no need to apologize for long comments – they're quite welcome.
But to address the point… This seems like a very odd thing to object to in a skit that is intentionally filled with stereotypes. While I agree with you that plenty of Indian immigrants to the United States are here in order to improve on already relatively high socioeconomic levels – certainly that's true for my husband & his brother – I think some of your points in this comment lack rigor.
First, do you have data to back up your point regarding the demographics of Indian migrants in the US? The research you mention in your post is qualitative, not quantitative in nature, and is focused on the Hyderabadi Muslim migrant population – which obviously won't be applicable to the Indian immigrant population as a whole. And your personal observations have a huge selection bias, given that you've spent all of your time in the US in a college/university setting.
Second, while I don't doubt that there are more Pakistani Muslims living in the US than Indian Muslims, given the wealth & religion demographics of the two countries in question, I believe that Pakistan has a slightly larger Muslim population than India does today.
Third, do you have any data to back up the assertion that the children poorer Indian immigrants to the United States have poorer educational or wealth (or any other socio-economic statistic) outcome than the richer Indian immigrants do? It's possible that they do, but it's also possible that they don't; certainly American immigrant history suggests that poor immigrant groups can show tremendous socio-economic gains in a generation or two. (I'm thinking specifically of Japanese, Chinese, and Jewish immigrants, although there are probably other cases.)
Until these points are cleared up (particularly the first and the last), I'm not sure it's accurate to make the claims that you're making. And you should also note that discussions of “model minority”, at least in economics, are rarely made in the context of immigration – more often it's a more straightforward comparison of socioeconomic indicators vs. ethnic background. If a group is minority by ethnicity and, as a group, have high socioeconomic indicators, then the group is considered a “model minority”, so to speak.
23. January 2009 at 1:31 pm
Thanks, you have raised some valid points.
As far as the numbers are concerned, well lets just think about how an Indian can get admitted to the US ? Unlike the older generation of European migrants and the migrants from Mexico today, Indians for the most part, cant just move to the US. They have to obtain visas/passports, the application fee of which is itself probably out of reach for most Indians. Also India takes up a large number of H1/L1 visas and a large number of foreign students here are from India. I agree this is still not quantitative, but still is an argument if not evidence in favor of my claims.
My second point is more relative in nature, that there are tremendous socio-economic gains across levels of immigrant groups is not something I am disputing, but like you said this is seen across ethnic groups, so is most likely not a function of 'Indianness'. When I say they dont do as well, its more along the lines that the child of a poorer migrant might finish at high school or some public university whereas that of a skilled migrant might enter into a more prestigious university.
A model minority discussion has to take migration into account if the source of the new minority is a recent migrant group. Especially since the criteria for migration have been very different in recent decades.
23. January 2009 at 2:02 pm
Just a technical note: if you push reply underneath my comment, the reply thread will continue, which can be helpful for others' following the discussion.
While it's true that immigration regulation has greatly risen in the US, relative to earlier waves of immigrants, I don't see how you get the “Mexicans can just move here” where Indians, apparently, can't. If you're talking illegal immigration, well, yes, it's easier to go across a stretch of land, fenced or not, than the Pacific. But legal immigration rules are roughly the same for both groups (there are quotas, but the general point remains).
The rest of your “general demographics of immigrants” argument – well, I actually wrote my senior economics thesis in undergrad on H1-B visas, so I'm quite aware that they're the second largest nationality coming in that visa category. But until one of us actually finds data on the general matter of Indian immigration to the US, I think we're both just talking out of our own personal experiences, which are almost certainly not representational of the true demographics. The argument you presented also doesn't suggest anything in regards to which sub-group of Indians (caste or Sikh or what-have-you) immigrates the most to the US, which was the main part of your original comment that I found questionable.
Your second point doesn't actually refute my main point: We know that there are both poor Indian immigrants and rich Indian immigrants, but you haven't shown any data to back up the idea that the outcomes for the next generation among these two groups differ in any substantial manner. In my previous comment I was simply pointing out that we have historic data suggesting that initially poor immigrant groups (where group does not necessarily mean the entirety of an immigrant ethnicity) can have quite good outcomes in the US, which is a point against your position.
“Model minority” is a definition. I gave the definition I am most familiar with in my last comment. Discussion as to why a particular group is a model minority must, of course, take into account initial starting conditions.
23. January 2009 at 2:57 pm
Actually, foreign students from poorer backgrounds are much more likely to be at good private colleges in the US than “end in high schools or public colleges”
The reason is money.
Public colleges in the US mostly function on public funds, and most of the financial aid comes in the form of Federal grants/loans. Given that international students cannot take out a loan (unless co-signed by a US Citizen), it becomes highly unlikely that this poor student would be able to shell out $20K+ per year.
Top 50 private colleges, on the other hand, are run on private endowments and donations… which means that International students have a chance of securing full scholarships. The better the college, the more money it is likely to have for merit and need-based scholarships.
24. January 2009 at 12:05 am
Aditya, I meant kids of poorer/less skilled migrants who are American citizens. I think they are more likely not to go to college than children of skilled migrants. Again, I dont have much data, but I remember reading a few articles on my university's website about this. I think this applies especially to children of poorer migrants from Mexico, who work in farms etc.
24. January 2009 at 12:08 am
Oops, sorry I forgot the reply button again.
25. January 2009 at 11:20 pm
ArthurHu.com
SAT Scores, 1990,
Wh Unitarian = 1073
Wh Quaker = 1037
Wh Jewish = 1030
As Hindu = 1029
Wh Hindu = 1004
Asian Average = 938
White Average = 934
Asian Islam = 923
—
Pew Report 2008
Muslim
College grad = 14%
Post grad = 10%
Family Income over 100K = 16%
Jewish
College grad = 24%
Post grad = 35%
Family Income over 100K = 46%
Hindu
College grad = 26%
Post grad = 48%
Family Income over 100K = 43%
In the USA, the socio-economic profiles of
jews and hindus overlap, whereas the
profile of muslims lag the white average
This is not true just in US
In UK, the Indian ( hindu and sikh ) immigrants score better educationally
than white natives, whereas, Pakistani and Bangladeshis
score at the level of afro-caribbeans
Same race, only difference is religion
The main difference I see is that in UK
Hindus and sikhs are asking to be de-lumped from
muslims under the 'Asian' label, since it lumps them
with a group that has negative societal impact
Whereas in USA, many naive hindus want to get lumped
with muslims under the 'south asian' or 'desi' label
25. January 2009 at 11:32 pm
Regarding Pakistani muslim vs Indian muslim immigration to the USA
Keep in mind, Pakistan never had land reforms as in India
Pakistan was created by feudal class muslims
Hence you have a zamindar class, ( baron ) with 10,000 acres,
and 1000 serfs
This class can afford to spend their own money on tuition and boarding
and a lot of them end up in the US
Including the children of Musharaff, The children
of the islamist jihadi party Jamat Islami leader Qazi Husain, and
the nephews of the head of the Mumbai terrorist attack LET, Hafiz Saeed
The Indian contingent, cant afford to pay fees and depends on scholarships
These scholarships are given to people who score over 1250 in GRE, ( Mensa level )
So the Indian contingent in US colleges tend to be of a much higher caliber
than the pakistani contingent
Next, in 1947, the muslim elite in residual India left for Pakistan,
leaving behind the illiterate muslims, who attend madrasas under mullahs
and dont attend modern schools
It is unrealistic to expect this madrasa educated group to do well in GRE
25. January 2009 at 11:45 pm
2 hindus out of 6 in US math olympiad 2008 team
1 hindu out of 6 in 2007 US math olympiad team
National geographic bee, state champions, ( 52 states )
–
2006- hindus = 6 out of 52
2007 – hindus = 4 out of 52
2008 – hindus = 4 out of 52
National Geographic Bee, all US
2006 – all US championships
Hindus in 1st , 2nd, 3rd place and 2 more in top 10
–
2007 – all US championship
Hindu in 2nd place
–
2008 – all US championship
Hindu in 1st place and 2 more in top 10
—-
I have not even quantified the Indian dominance in spelling bees
—
The second generation has something called regression to the mean
and the above is the achievements of the second generation
25. January 2009 at 11:50 pm
1250 is a bare minimum
In my personal case, I got 1450
and in my college only those who got over 1400 got scholarships
25. January 2009 at 11:53 pm
My points are that (A) 1250 is not a “mensa level” score and (B) scholarships in the US – especially for graduate school – are rarely awarded on a “strictly GRE score” basis. There's a heck of a lot of disciplines – most of the humanities and social sciences – where your goal in the math section is to simply not embarrass yourself, and the value of the English or writing section is not much beyond that. Those programs certainly don't award scholarships simply on the basis of GRE scores. Even in economics – my field – the GRE score is more of a gating factor than a help in getting scholarships. If you get something below 770 in math, you're in trouble, but beyond that the GRE is not used much for either acceptance or scholarship decisions.
25. January 2009 at 11:56 pm
You've got too small a sample set to get any valuable statistics regarding the intelligence or overall ability of a specific ethnicity from that data. Especially since both the spelling bees and geographic bees require a massive amount of memorization to win – frankly, I think it's an absolute waste of time to participate in those sort of competitions, since the kid could actually be learning new stuff or even (gasp!) playing outside. Perhaps doing well correlates with lack of common sense…